Cap’n Ed seems to think we’re all making a bigger deal out of the White House’s torture memos than is really called for. After all, we did worse things to Nazis during WWII, didn’t we?
Ed, quoting from the Washington Post, says:
The veterans of P.O. Box 1142, a top-secret installation in Fairfax County that went only by its postal code name, were brought back to Fort Hunt by park rangers who are piecing together a portrait of what happened there during the war.
Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.
“We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice,” said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.
The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.
“During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”
Oh, well, then. Not so much.
But, you see, it’s not the same, because the enemy we fight today is way, way, way worse than Nazis. Like, seriously way worse. Just ask Ed.
It must be said, however, that they faced a different enemy in a different war. The Germans fought to expand territory through traditional warfare, at least as arrayed against the US and the West. While they conducted sabotage missions in the US through espionage, they did not use terrorist infiltrators to attempt to kill thousands of American civilians.
Um, Ed? You know the legal decision that the Administration keeps citing in its attempts to find a precedent allowing them to do anything they damn well please — including torture and execution — of “unlawful enemy combatants”? You know, Ex parte Quirin? It’s based on things that actually happened, what with the Court being notoriously fussy about reviewing cases based on made-up stuff. Specifically, what it’s based on is the capture of eight German (and German-American) Nazi agents participating in something called Operation Pastorius. Contrary to its sweet-sounding name, Operation Pastorius was not about bringing us edelweiss and German milkmaids:

Operation Pastorius was a failed plan for a series of attacks by Nazi German agents inside the United States. The operation was staged in June 1942 and was to be directed against strategic U.S. economic targets. The operation was named by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, chief of the German Abwehr, for Francis Daniel Pastorius, the leader of the first organized settlement of Germans in America….
Their mission was to stage sabotage attacks on American economic targets: hydro-electric plants at Niagara Falls; the Aluminum Company of America’s plants in Illinois, Tennessee and New York; locks on the Ohio River near Louisville, Kentucky; the Horseshoe Curve a crucial railroad pass near Altoona, Pennsylvania as well as the Pennsylvania Railroad’s repair shops at Altoona; a cryolite plant in Philadelphia; Hell Gate Bridge in New York; and Pennsylvania Station in Newark, New Jersey.
(emphasis mine)
I don’t know if Ed’s ever been to Penn Station, but I have. I can pretty much guarantee you that blowing up Penn Station would result in some impressive civilian carnage on any given day and at any given time. I honestly don’t know if it would kill as many people as were killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center, and I hope to God I never find out.
While there is a fair argument to be made that the Pastorius conspirators weren’t terrorists because they were representatives of a military government we were currently at war with, all that answer does is beg the question of what it means for the United States to be (as our government keeps insisting we are) “at war with terrorism.” Regardless, the idea that Nazis had not tried to kill American civilians by the boatload is just false.
They also did not face religious extremists who believed that death brought them to Allah and 72 waiting virgins for taking out women and children. One can make a case that the civilized techniques of PO Box 1142 worked because their detainees also believed themselves civilized and members of the Western culture.
Right. Because Nazis weren’t extremists or anything. Nazis were calm, reasonable individuals with no strange beliefs about the afterlife.
But don’t get Ed wrong. He’s not saying it’s okay to torture people, even Muslamonazis. It’s just so hard to know what torture is sometimes…
That’s not an argument for torture as traditionally understood. Is waterboarding torture? We use it to train our Navy SEALs and other commando units.
You know, I’ve heard that, too. I’ve also heard that the reason why we expose our SEALs to waterboarding is to PREPARE THEM TO RESIST TORTURE in case they are captured by enemies who practice TORTURE.
I will leave it to those less disgusted than I am to complete that syllogism.
You know, we’ve hit a new low in our political discourse when it’s possible to read other people making apologies and excuses for torture and not find yourself feeling much in the way of outrage over it. A little bit of disgust, sure, but no real outrage. It’s like when you flood the engine on your car and the sparkplugs won’t spark — there is just so much on a daily basis to be outraged over that it’s hard to muster more than a weak sputter anymore. I’m not even sure what it would take to put enough oxygen back into this mix to bring the outrage back, and that just depresses me even more. How about you? What would it take for you to feel genuine outrage again?