Why do we bother voting?
Posted on June 26th, 2008 by Brad
Honestly. It’s tough having any kind of hope for the Democratic party when you read nonsense like this. Ditto this.
UPDATE: Heh:
Gavin adds: Maybe we can become Chris Dodd bitter-enders.
[ahem] Personally, I shall never in all my life forget the howling persecution that we endured from the O-bot smear machine and the Clintonazi long-knifers. They have tried to marginalize us, but ho! now we will band together and marginalize them.
Yes, as Dodd is our witness, it will be “unity” on our terms.
Above: We are prepared to battle our way to the frontier
[Blogosphere map: Cf.]
Obama has been disappointing me regularly lately. I guess we can hold out hope that he’s doing whatever’s necessary to get himself in the White House, and will actually govern better after he’s elected.
Let’s just keep telling ourselves that.
Simple. Don’t vote for a democrat.
I dunno, man. I think if we were to elect Noam Chomsky president, within five months he’d be funding abstinence-only education and granting himself unlimited warrantless surveillance powers.
That’s about how depressed I am that I honestly believe that.
Feck, dudes, Feck.
This election season is more depressing than every Victor Hugo novel, every Charles Dickens novel, and every Shakespearean tragedy compressed into a five minute soundbite. My approach to dealing with it involves trying to think about it as little as possible. Too much time spent thinking about it doesn’t make me question the utility of voting; it makes me question the utility of living.
I swear to Christ, the Democratic party is nothing more than my pimp. It’s not like I really like the party or anything, but if I don’t go on giving my loyalty to it, it won’t protect me from the really creepy and evil predators that are out there, like the Republican party.
Of course, if the Democratic party is my pimp, that makes me a big old whore. The only difference between me and most other Democratic voters is that I’m not naive enough to think that my pimp is somehow my “boyfriend”.
Doesn’t mean I really like being a whore, though.
Is it too late to trade Obama in for either a turd sandwich or a giant douche? Actually hrm… Obama, Turd Sandwich, Giant Douche… sort of seems redundant doesn’t it?
The Democratic Party could never be a pimp.
Pimps are, by their nature, risk takers.
I’m not calling pimps admirable, just saying the Dems ain’t quite to their standards.
Politicians are inherently disappointing. That’s just the nature of the beast. Nothing but sluts for the big Corporate $’s.
The Democratic National Convention, sponsored by AT&T.
I think the best we can hope for is that Obama is 72% less likely to invade Iran.
When you’re down and troubled
And nothing is going right
remember this.
Hello. I’m here for my Hobson’s Choice.
Welcome. We have a fine choice for you today.
Wonderful. I’m not at all miserable enough. Whatcha got?
Ok. Today it’s diseases. Pellagra or Malaria? What’s it gonna be?
Oh. Um, shit. They both suck?
Well, duh. That’s the point of the exercise.
Oh. Ok, ok, um, I’ll go with Pellagra.
BZZZZZT. Sorry, wrong answer. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
Um, ok, I guess. But why was Malaria the right answer?
Oh, it wasn’t. There IS no right answer. You can’t win this game. Thanks again for playing…
mikey
mikey, what scotch are you drinking tonight?
A Laphroaig 10yr.
Had a run in with the local uniforms the other night.
Keeping a low profile for now.
Watching the giants, havin a scotch, gonna do an herb baked pork chop, a little pasta and some fresh corn.
I must say it’s good to see you around these parts, young lady.
You were a topic of conversation at the Portlanding…
mikey
Fug Dodd.
Carlin/Hicks 08.
Because whatever’s left of their mortal remains are still better choices than what’s on offer.
Simple. Don’t vote for a democrat.
Spoken like a true WATB.
[added an ‘adds,’ btw]
I’ve definitely missed you guys! Toward the end of the school year, I had night school classes I had to take, which just sucked up all of my time. Now that it’s summer, I need to get around more.
I’m awfully tempted to pick up a bottle of Glenlivet.
Jillian: The pols are the whores, offering every trick they can think of to reel us in. We’re the johns. We’re the ones paying for whatever they’re offering because we can’t get it on with someone real.
The Dems are still the pimps, though.
Screw it – think outside the box, people! Why write in a Democrat? Write in a Republican! Dick Mountjoy for President! Mount a Dick in ’08!
Highland malt number ten.
Islay malt number one.
You want short time?
mikey
George Wallace (the cracker politician, not the colored comedian) was right, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties. And let’s face it, Sen. Obama’s actual plans & whatnot are pretty vague. “Hope,” my ass.
Job one is to elect a serious majority in Congefs.
Bouffant, if we keep electing Blue Dog Democrats, it won’t make a spit of difference.
Can someone please explain this “better than McCain” bullshit to me? I suppose if you arm was cut off putting a band aid on it would be better than not doing so but it isn’t really gonna make one fucks worth of difference.
The core of all these bush scandals (wiretapping,war,politicization,plame leak) is a fucking executive branch that refusing to acknowledge it’s constitutional limits. This FISA statement is a clear sign that Obama is starting down that path, so even if Obama is 72% less likely to invade Iran, it won’t really matter if he spends his entire term making the executive more powerful and melting away the constitution… in the long term the major issue is still there, and even more dangerous than ever.
George Wallace (the cracker politician, not the colored comedian) was right, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties.
And I still get grief for my Nader support in 2000. As if Gore’s losing his own state! is my own personal fault.
Well, a President who increases the power of the Executive office AND invades Iran is worse than a President who increases the power of the Executive office and does NOT invade Iran. QED.
For what it’s worth, anyway.
I don’t think I drink enough to follow politics anymore.
It’s not just a River in Egypt
Quaint. Charming. If only….
The US as a player is dead. We don’t export, we don’t MAKE anything, we neither produce nor create. We consume. That is the end of the day.
As in…
…At the end of the day the US will not wield any power.
What do we bring to the party?
We can kill you?
Sorry. That’s old and tired. Nobody’s afraid. Oh, they get that we CAN kill them, but they can kill us much more deader. Whatever the US is going to be in the next ten years, it is NOT going to be what we’ve come to be used to.
It’s over. It was a run, and the run is at an end.
Draw a deep breath, and start thinking about what you’re gonna do.
Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?
mikey
I’m gonna share my whisky with them!
MzNicky,
Rest assured that if Sen. Obama gets smoked by Poopdeck Pappy, there will be Greek choruses of “ThanksRalph” at every pwoggie website known, regardless of how many (or how few) votes Mr. Nader gets.
Zombie Eugene Debs FTW.
Good lord, what a depressing bunch. Try to keep your chins up, peeps.
Another 2000 Nader voter here. I can take the brickbats, but I’m mostly annoyed by all the retroactive admiration for the theoretical Al Gore presidency that never was. Lots of people tend to think, for no good reason, that an ex-politician with no need to get re-elected is somehow anything like an actual elected official in what he says and does. And these are intelligent people I’m talking about.
I agree with you Brad. Noam Chomsky would nuke Iran. SSomething in that white house water. Good thing I’m a bartender, lots of business at the bar in the coming years!
MzNicky –
Unfortunately for you, Nader falls somewhere below the demorats on the scale of craven attention whores, and would probably also send General Chomsky in to wipe out the Iranian menace, so really, you probably should take shit for that.
Jillian – If we’re gonna live in a neo fascist state with a virtual dictator, I’d rather have a reckless warmonger in office myself. It’s a lot more exciting. Who wants to live in 1984 without the perpetual war? what a drag that would be!
George Wallace (the cracker politician, not the colored comedian) was right, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties.
And I still get grief for my Nader support in 2000. As if Gore’s losing his own state! is my own personal fault.
—
Even Confederate Yankee is smart enough to know there is a large difference between the two parties. The Nader comment is too stupid and intentionally blind to even critique.
poopy (are you saying I should take you “for that”?!):
If, as you propose, and I don’t accept at any rate, Nader is/was a “craven attention whore,” this differentiates him from anyone else who ever decided to run for teh presidency how?
And in addition, may I insert at this juncture that, unlike most “attention whores” who enjoy the hegemonic benefits of the system enough to make it to the finals, Nader has a long solid history of actual maverick-ness and authentic public service. Dig that.
The Nader comment is too stupid and intentionally blind to even critique.
Excuse me?
Even Confederate Yankee is smart enough to know there is a large difference between the two parties.
Really? ‘splain to me, Lucy.
Douglas, there are differences between the parties, obviously. The problem comes with truly fundamental issues like FISA. Put it this way: if you had to choose between two babysitters, one of them a drunken abuser and the other a Mary Poppins type, the choice is easy. But if they both have a stated policy of “If the kids misbehave, I reserve the right to lock them in the closet with no food indefinitely”, then there’s really no difference in the things that really matter, is there?
While I’ll admit there’s a difference in what each party says; I’d like to see some proof that there’s a difference in what each party does.
Nader has done some serious shit good deeds in his public life. If you or anyone you have ever known has been in a car accident and survived you probably owe him a giant fucking thanks. On the other hand, I can’t think of a single other “public servant” that has done anything on that level.
PS what kind of fucking servant makes 150k a year, and still whores themselves out for money?
I looked up “Sadly no!” myself. Take a gander at their supposedly brilliant takedown of Richard Cohen. I looked at the Cohen article and it so happens I think this is one of his better efforts. He points out, quite correctly, that McCain’s life story shows he has a couple of core principles. Such as being tortured for 5 years by the N. Vietnamese and refusing ignominious repatriation. Whereas Obama’s life history shows no such core principles.
Now, what’s to disagree with there?
Sez commenter J at Cannonfire.
What a world, what a world.
That’s why I never really understood how both sides got so insane about this.
It’s not like Barry H. is some kind of savior.
The dime’s worth of difference was that he didn’t vote for the war and she did.
Other than that they could merge to form a Steny Hoyer borg. Or something.
Fuck you people.
Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Fuck your endorsement of a fucking Halliburton assclown just because you couldn’t get everything your fucking way. And by the way, how’s your beloved Nader doing, these days? You know, aside from the incontinence and the motherfucking race-baiting? Huh?
Fuck you. Fuck you for the last fucking 8 years. Fuck you. Fuck you for being unable to step back, grit your damn teeth, suck it up, and pull the damned D lever anyway. In case you haven’t fucking noticed, we live in a fucking winner-take-all scenario. As in, the Greens don’t matter shit in national politics. As in, the Greens will never matter shit in national politics. Ever. Best case scenerio is the Democrats sweep all portions of national government, we get Era of Good Feelings II, then the party splits into centrists and lefties. Until then, no. Stop fucking fooling yourself, and stop fucking playing with fucking American lives because you aren’t smart enough to put your pee-pee away and do the motherfucking rational thing.
If Saint McBBQ gets elected because you dumbshits couldn’t understand your ass from a hole in a ground, and I somehow get drafted into whatever foreign adventure awaits us in a McSuck administration, and I get killed, I will haunt you and your children and your children’s children. None of your dreams will be spared.
Fuck you morons. Knock it off. Shut the fuck up.
MzNicky- That’s right. You too. Enjoy supporting a Halliburton moneyman, dummy. How does it feel? See, I wouldn’t know, because I was never pathetic enough to vote for Racist McNaderHalliburton. But you apparently are. How does it feel? How does it feel? Tell me. I want to fucking know how great you are.
Idiots. All of you.
Fuck you.
I’d like to see some proof that there’s a difference in what each party does.
Being deliberately ignorant is not going to help you in your quest.
Nader is a fucking Halliburton stockholder, you idiots.
The joke’s on you! Morons.
Please tell me how voting for a Bush enabler and a Halliburton moneyman will change things for the better. Fucking tell me, you damned pencil-dicked ratfuckers. Tell me.
mikey and Jillian–
For my increasingly worthless money the best bang for the buck is the Balvenie line.
The 10 year’s pretty good, the 12 year DoubleWood is even better and the 15 year single barrel is the best you can buy for the price IMHO.
On the other end of the spectrum…
When we were in Edinburgh, we went to the Scotch Whisky museum on the Royal Mile. In the locked case was a hand lettered bottle. This is what it said:
Macallan Dist.
Casked 5/8/45
Bottled 5/8/95
Victory
50 year old Macallan casked and bottled on V-E Day. One barrel.
The price? 21,000 GBP.
Waitagoddamminute here.
Huh?
How is being taken prisoner and being tortured a “Core Principle”?
That makes no sense. I mean, sure, even though it’s beyond your control how you manage it and how you deal with it is kind of reflective of who you are.
At least, up to some point. After a certain number of years, you’re just doing whatever you can to survive. And there’s no “Core Principle” in that.
You can call it grit, or you can call it surrender, you can call it anything that makes any sense at all, but folks, c’mon.
Being TORTURED isn’t a core principle.
If it was, there would be no difference between Khalid Sheik Mohammed and John McCain.
And at the end of the “day”, know what?
I’m not convinced there is…
mikey
Absolutely!
Barack Obama will be better for this country than John McCain.
If you are unable to see this, please kiss my ass.
Moving on.
Geez, are we really gonna refight ’00 again? Can we just not and say we did – I’m already so depressed that I’m crying in my beer over here.
Speaking for myself, I’m unabashedly voting Dem this year. Even a dumb whore or a principled whore knows when the other pimps on the street are getting so violent that she needs a pimp of her own to protect her.
But do I have to act like I like it, as well? ‘Cause I don’t think I can do that.
Ummm…
What D.N. Nation said.
Fuck. Ralph. Nader.
Anyone who still needs to be told this really needs to give up the binkie and the blankie and join the rest of us here in Grownup Land.
Suck it up. If you voted for Nader, you voted for a Halliburton whore.
Do the screams of dying Iraqi children haunt your dreams? They should.
Yeah, I see your point, seeing as how easy it was for you to not be an ambiguous cad and actually lay it out for me I’m just being a dumbass by refusing to accept your dogma.
I’ve seen that a few times. I just want to say; Worst. Map. Ever.
Seriously.
Boy, am I doing some hatin’ on Obama over this one. Sent them a note saying, among other things, “no more money from me.”
Now, that being said, is there a possibility Obama has his political ass covered on this? I don’t claim to know those arcane Senate rules, but it sure does seem to me that one Senator can block pretty much whatever the fuck he/she wants.
If they filibuster, and succeed, is not Obama even more brilliant than we thought? I don’t think Chris or Russ are in any danger doing so.
Help me out here.
Oh goodness gracious! Obama isn’t going to usher in my personal utopia! Okay, circular firing squad forms over there.
Re Gavin’s addition: Battlestar Blogactica? Blogglebat Galactiblog?
If you’re in the GOP, anyway. Just to clarify.
I didn’t vote for Nader.
I voted for the Green Party ticket.
I’m not a goddamn Democrat, and if you are, YOU are a whole hell of a lot more responsible for the goddamn Iraq war than I am, you stupid tool. YOUR party’s politicians voted for it in droves. Hope that makes you feel good about yourself.
For me, I’ve been working with the Green Party for my entire adult life, and the rotten Democratic party doesn’t own my vote. If they want my vote, they should STOP VOTING FOR ILLEGAL WARS, for fuck’s sake.
I could give two shits about Ralph Nader. I cast a party ticket vote – just like you do. The difference between us is the party we think represents our principles. You think the Democratic party represents yours. Personally, I don’t know how you sleep with yourself at night with that being the case, but that’s your problem, not mine.
As it is, this country is so fucked at this point that voting Dem is the only option left on anything. But that has everything to do with me voting my fears, and nothing at all to do with me voting my hopes. I don’t even know if I believe in democracy anymore after these last eight years – and the Republicans AND Democrats are BOTH responsible for that. In almost equal measures.
So fuck you.
“Honestly” no matter what I do I can’t get that damned firedogflake page to load. I hate their dysfunctional web site…hate!
I’d like to see some proof that there’s a difference in what each party does.
It’s not my job to convince you there is a difference between the two parties. Nor is it my job to convince you that the shit going down your toilet is not a delicious, hearty stew.
Enjoy.
Repeating now: Jillian, you are fantastic.
I vote 3rd party whenever I can’t see a difference. That happens a lot.
Living in IL, there is now a good chance Barr will get my vote. Talk about holding your nose…
I want to fucking know how great you are.
D.N. Nation: I am not great. I’m part of you and what you’re railing against. We just see it from different perspectives. Peace dude/tte.
mikey –
It’s just Republican boilerplate. And the fact that “liberal” Richard Cohen and the Hillary deadenders are repeating it just proves to me that some people will do anything rather than vote for a black man for President (even one as “white” as Obama – right, Ralph?)
Supporting the constitution and not using terrorism “scare” as a justification when you don’t is just a fucking dreamland? There is a bare minimum you should be expecting from these guys. Fuck utopia, how about just not being a complete fucking tool?
Are you retarded or something? If you’re gonna go around demanding everyone accept your arguments then be prepared to make them or go shove a stick up your ass.
John, you gotta vote Dem this time around. You really just gotta. Please?
I’m voting for Obama. Honestly, had the Democrats nominated the rotting corpse of James K. Polk, I would’ve voted for him, too.
The stakes are just too high to leave the White House in Republican hands for another term. I am honestly terrified to think about what could happen under those circumstances.
Be a pal, John. Suck it up and pull the “D” lever.
Speaking as a registered voter in Maryland, I think I may just write-in John Edwards this time around. Really, unless Obama gets struck dead by lightning, my home state is gonna go about 2-to-1 in his favor, so it won’t be that big of a loss.
Whatever happened to that old S,N! thread about possible Democratic slogans for ’08? I think one of my favorites was something along the lines of: “Vote Democrat: Because we will kick that football…this time!”
Being here is not helping my depression at all. Too much raw anger and too many exposed nerve endings. Later.
C’mon, guys!
Vote for the Democrat!
I swear, if you do, I will personally come to your house and make you my extra-special banana-lime-coconut-rum bread! I’ll make my wild mushroom risotto! I’ll even throw in my pesto-stuffed mushrooms to seal the deal if necessary.
Please? You don’t have to like it, you just have to do it.
It’s not worth taking any chances this time around.
Before this pie fight gets completely out of hand, let’s calmly reflect on how we got here…
People who voted for Nader could not see the difference between a fairly benign corporate shill and a tyrannical warmongering Monkey Boy.
Democrats who voted for the war could not see the difference between finding the 9/11 perps and destroying a whole country that has never been responsible for a single dead American.
Those were both REALLY big mistakes.
Which brings us to the now.
Anyone who votes for McCain cannot see the difference between a man who voted his conscience against Monkey Boy’s colonial escapades and an insane violent psychopath whose last remaining marble dropped out the same moment he became Huggy Bear.
Thus, our options. McSame or something which cannot possibly be any worse and is almost certainly going to be better.
Choose wisely or you might end up like Donovan in Last Crusade.
Be a pal, John. Suck it up and pull the “D” lever.
Think of it as putting down a heinous criminal. Capital punishment you can live with.
There will be no Republicans getting my vote, Jillian. Living in IL I may have the luxury of a choice. I’ll be watching the numbers, and if they’re remotely close, I’ll be voting for Obama. I get it.
Also, living in IL gave me no other choice than to vote Green in the last election for Governor, and Green crossed the 10% threshold, which I can tell you is a big deal in terms of actual political reality, having tried to get on the ballot to torture the living shit out of both parties in IL-10 back in ’99. I needed 12,000 petition signatures (assuming that at least 3000 would be thrown out, which is very realistic); the major parties needed about 450 apiece. Guess how long it takes to get one petition signature?
Now, all that being said, I still need someone out here to tell me that there isn’t any way Obama isn’t a step or two ahead of all on this. (Most of us should be able to admit it wouldn’t be the first time, and I’m long past underestimating his political savvy.)
If he has a filibuster guarantee, isn’t this good politics for the general?
As a wise man once said:
Pot will get you through times of no money far better than money will get you through times of no pot.
I think we can all agree on that one.
You’re weak-kneed about Obama, yet you were OK with Bush Boy at the top of the GP ticket?
You fail. Absurdly so.
I’m not. I belong to no party, as it should be.
Cue the expected response: Aren’t you special, aren’t you smart, aren’t you brave, or whatever. Heard it before from you people. Yes, you people.
Then you should have fucking done something about what you ratfuckers did in 2000.
That I realize this lovely country doesn’t have proportional voting, so the Greens are diddly-poo on a national stage. Those beloved Democraps are the closest I get to progressivism in Washington, so I pull the D lever. I’m not a moron.
I vote Green when I can locally. I live in Atlanta, so that’s almost never, but them’s the breaks.
Then fucking do it.
Your party’s slogan is still fucking grating. Just so you know.
<blockquoteI swear, if you do, I will personally come to your house and make you my extra-special banana-lime-coconut-rum bread! I’ll make my wild mushroom risotto! I’ll even throw in my pesto-stuffed mushrooms to seal the deal if necessary
Jillian, you’re getting warmer. LOL.
Arggghhh.
Do the screams of dying Iraqi children haunt your dreams? They should.
Oh, jeezus h christ’s tits in a mason jar, DN. You’re a smart guy. I know that ’cause when you’re not foaming at the mouth you do thoughtful, intelligent things.
Do you really think this kind of hyperbole and appeal to the worst horror is of any real value in this conversation?
It just sounds cheap and slimy. If you ask me…
mikey
People who voted for Nader could not see the difference between a fairly benign corporate shill and a tyrannical warmongering Monkey Boy.
Ding !!! Ding !!! Ding !!!
For the last damned billionth time, NADER WAS A TROLL PLANTED BY THE MONKEY BOY
I’ve been arguing and arguing and arguing the last 8 years, and I’m at the point where I’m just cracking skulls. Not my fault people still, apparently, refuse to get it.
If everyone votes D, there will be no Rs left to have to make compromises with, suck up to, etc.
Jesus, how many times do I have to say I’m voting Dem? As I have said about a million times at this point, if the Democratic party had nominated the rotting corpse of James K. Polk, I would’ve put a bumper sticker on my car that said “Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!”.
I’m not especially proud of it, but I’m doing it.
And I don’t waste time arguing with people who chalk the whole 2000 electoral debacle up to a third party that scored less than 3% of the popular vote. It’s so irrational, I don’t know where to even start.
It’s not my fault the Democrats suck, so take your misguided wrath out on someone else.
and all the little trolls might commit collective suicide. no more gun counter gomers, no more pamelas, no more malkins. yeah, i know, too good to be true.
DN Nation, you’re going to have to calm down a hell of a lot before I engage you.
For the record, I never said that I wasn’t voting for the Democrats in November. Per my analogy in an earlier post, I’ll take the Mary Poppins with a malevolent streak over the child molester who is nothing but malevolence.
It doesn’t mean I have to be proud of it, though, or even that it’s a real choice.
And I don’t waste time arguing with people who chalk the whole 2000 electoral debacle up to a third party that scored less than 3% of the popular vote. It’s so irrational, I don’t know where to even start.
mmm … Florida ?
Don’t earn it.
All I’m saying.
I’m glad you’re voting for Obama. I apologize for being loud.
Again, I’m sorry I was loud, but dammit, this stuff grates and grates. I was right then, I’m right now, and I still have the need to whip out the bat on this.
So deal.
Seriously. I don’t argue the 2000 election online. I’ve never done it once, and I’m not about to start now. For some reason, it brings out the hidden moron/asshole in EVERYONE.
But I stand by what I said: taking the entire clusterfuck that was the 2000 election season and boiling the whole thing down to a third party vote has never made the slightest bit of sense to me.
It’s just not worth arguing over, because everyone gets stupid when it comes up. I think Poorman recently had a nice trolling thread on this; if you want to argue it, go there. It’s just pointless.
Because you’re not getting it. It’s not that Nader “cost” Gore the election (debatable, probably didn’t), it’s that progressives dropped trou for a motherfucking Bush plant. Dis-fucking-gusting.
So deal with it. It’s your legacy.
Voting for Nader in 2000 in a secure Democrat or Repub. state — no problem.
In a tight, swing state that could decide the entire election — really fucking stupid.
3bulls (plover) did some astute analysis of the 2004 voting patterns, which should put the Democrats who accuse the Nader voters of betrayal to rest.
“PBP: And here come the pretzels!
CM: Hall Of Famer Whitey Ford now out on the field, pleading with the crowd for…for some kind of sanity.
PBP: Uh Oh! And a barrage of pretzels now knocking Whitey unconscious!
CM: Wow. This is…this is a black day for baseball.”
That sounds exactly like some other idealogue I know… question is would you invade Iraq to prove your righteousness? Asshole. This world needs a lot less of you.
See what I mean? Whenever 2000 comes up, everyone acts like both an idiot and an asshole.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Yeah, I see your point, seeing as how easy it was for you to not be an ambiguous cad and actually lay it out for me I’m just being a dumbass by refusing to accept your dogma.
An ambiguous cad would be Cary Grant in “Suspicion.” It’s a wonderful performance and a very engrossing movie.
An idiot would be someone who needs the difference between a flawed, overly centrist Democrat and WWIII explained to him.
Aww, c’mon, can we get past Nader for a minute here? I prefer to deal with the situation as it stands now.
Does it take a super-majority to stop a filibuster? Again, is it possible that Obama has this figured out with some of his colleagues? Can he win the battle, and gain advantage in the war?
Inquiring mind wants to know.
…McCain’s life story shows he has a couple of core principles. Such as being tortured for 5 years by the N. Vietnamese and refusing ignominious repatriation. Whereas Obama’s life history shows no such core principles.
In case there is any doubt about this, I want to make it clear that Not being tortured is one of my own core values.
That aside, the Cohen-defending commenter is arguing that you should vote for the candidate who has shown how cheaply he will sell himself for. The other candidate has not yet broken enough of his own policies to sink to his lowest price, and therefore cannot be trusted.
Specifically
Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession? Heh. Indeed. We’re winning! Corporate corruption (of which I’m certainly not a part)! Obama’s only half-black! Dude, where’s my recession?
Living in IL, there is now a good chance Barr will get my vote.
Seriously, WTF? Wasn’t Barr all about the Constitutional amendment to “protect” marriage?
That does not sound terribly Libertarian to me….
For a guy who is going to have exactly zero effect on the 2008 election, Nader’s getting a lot of play on this thread. Thanksralph!
“For the last damned billionth time, NADER WAS A TROLL PLANTED BY THE MONKEY BOY”
Easy there, D.N. I know this. I’m on your side.
I’m just trying to fill in the gap in your understanding as to why otherwise intelligent people voted for him.
They bought the “no dime’s worth of difference” bullshit and clearly had done no research on Monkey Boy’s authoritarian statements and disastrous policies in Texas.
Reel it in there, big guy. You’re among friends.
I yell at my friends. That’s probably something I should fix.
MzNicky – Yes take me! (home, to another country, on a bus ride to Hippietown, wherever!)
it differentiates him not at all. What makes nader different is he still clings to the attention whoring despite it serving no actual real world purpose. That makes it craven attention whoring for craven attention whoring’s sake, which is slightly worse in my book than craven attention whoring for an obtainable goal, even if that goal is a despotic Machiavelian power grab.
So i dig his consumer advocacy, sister, but find his presidential ambitions to be lacking a certain, how you say, anything?
In a tight, swing state that could decide the entire election — really fucking stupid.
You would do better to direct your rage at the thousands of registered Democrats in Florida who voted for Bush. Or failing that, you might express annoyance at the voters who pulled the lever for Pat Buchanan in one of the most heavily Jewish districts.
Dude, seriously, what Jillian said. The entire situation in Florida was fucked up beyond all recognition. It had so much of everything, I never did decide who I hated more–the dumbshits who didn’t know how to punch a ballot, the assholes who exploited all of the above for political gain, the media, you pick. Blaming Florida 2000 on Nader has been a lazy crutch for 8 years, and it’s time to put it down.
A protest vote, for sure.
Gotta be done if you want REAL change. From time to time, in practical situations.
Barr is an ass, but it IS possible he’s seen the bigger picture since was out of the game for a while.
It’s not “Libertarian” to vote for Barr, because I don’t really believe he is one. But it’s libertarian to throw him a bone without risk if that’s the direction you think the country needs to go, as it was for the Greens. Al Gore should’ve won in a walk, Nader or not, and I will NEVER criticize anyone for voting their beliefs. I’m for freedom of person. And we shouldn’t forget that the media’s treatment of Gore, not the Green’s, really swung the election and gave life to the blogosphere.
I criticize people for not voting at all, which in my mind is a double-vote.
Someone should write a Greasemonkey script that replaces any comment containing the word ‘Nader’ with an equivalent amount of Lorem Ipsum.
That request is my contribution for comity and civility for today. Now it is Beer O’Clock.
Well since you put it that way….
Sometimes it helps. My friends yelling at me got me out of my complacency and forced me to think hard about who I was and who I wanted to be.
It worked beautifully.
In this case, I think not so much.
I’m unclear as to how the Bushies “planted” Ralph Nader. Like others, I don’t care to rehash the past, but the theory (and that’s what it is) that Nader somehow became a Rethug dupe is a new one to me.
“PS what kind of fucking servant makes 150k a year, and still whores themselves out for money?”
I dunno? A servant thats really good at fucking? Although one could then argue that whoring themselves is their actual job, so…
Wow. Just a little late to the party, Nicky.
We need to update that old macro of the Domo-kun chasing the kitten that says “every time you masturbate, God kills a kitten.”
It now needs to say “Every time you discuss the 2000 election, God kills a kitten.”
Won’t you guys please think of the kittens?
Hey, anyone need some comic relief.
John-
I will never criticize anyone when they vote based on their beliefs (as opposed to all of the blame-mongering that Nader voters have had to endure), so I apologize.
Your comment just seemed a little out of left field and I wasn’t sure if you were joking or not.
All right, I guess I’ll have to go the Corporate media for an answer.
This Nader shit is boring the living snot out of me. A Republican plant? LOL. Nader is one weird dude, but he’s not THAT weird. He has a record, you know, and some of it is good.
Presumably Barr is a Dem plant, too.
‘Night, all. For once, it’s been disappointing. That in itself is, at least, interesting when viewed as a microcosm and shit for the day’s events.
The hearland is, fact. Florida 2000, bitches. Continue fighting among yourselves.
Jillian,
Sure, I’ll vote for a kitten – you might even persuade me to vote for God. And yes, discussing the 2000 election isn’t very productive for anybody.
Then got old and desperate for something to amuse himself with late in life.
Money worked, too. Paid for by the blood of American soldiers.
Moving forward. Eight years on, Bush is dead to Americans, McCain’s a fossilized Bush-clone with anger management issues who hasn’t a hope in hell of winning. Obama is young, likeable, coherent, reasonable, optimistic, and he never supported the war. Americans are fed up Iraq and being fucked in the ass by the neocons.
If you voted Nader “based on your beliefs,” then you’re either doing it wrong or…well, you know.
No offense taken, ODS. Gotta have thick skin out here in the ‘sphere, limited as we are by drawing inferences (often hilariously broad, stupid, judgmental inferences) within the boundaries of the written word.
Of course! That’s what George W. was doing AWOL from the National Guard! He was spending all of that time using hypnotism to turn Ralph Nader into a sleeper agent for his eventual presidential campaign.
It was especially clever to get Nader to run for president in 1996, when Dubya was still Texas’ chief executioner.
That fiendish Svengali!
Oh, all the dead kitties are breaking my heart! Sob! I love kitties.
It was only a matter of time before my old Nader sparring partners showed up. Where’s Hoosier? Better get it in now before I’m out for a smoke and bed.
Wow, DN’s thoughtful reasoning has convinced me. I’m voting Green Party. Go Cynthia McKinney! I’m worried if I say I’m voting Obama, DN might crack my skull for not voting for him with a big enough smile on my face while the smaller, lubed Democratic penis is being inserted in my ass in place of the huge, raw Republican one I’ve been dealing with for 7-1/2 years.
Jesus Christ! Every time I try to leave I have to deal with more nonsense!
I DID NOT VOTE FOR NADER. I was worried Gore wouldn’t carry IL.
But I sure as hell WANTED to vote for Nader, and he wasn’t perfect, either. I’m sick and tired of the wealthy and powerful living under different rules than the rest of us, at least so fucking blatantly and flagrantly. THAT’s why I’m pissed at Obama (unless or until the suddenly oft-repeated mystery question that I posed is answered with some facts), and THAT’S why I’ll never criticize an individual for voting for Nader.
So i dig his consumer advocacy, sister, but find his presidential ambitions to be lacking a certain, how you say, anything?
Is Nader running again? I don’t think so. In 2000 (and it’s been a helluva near-decade since) I still had enough self-possession and a remaining smidgen of idealism to think that the consumer-advocate hero of my fledgling political youth would be the conscientious vote — an actual third choice who wasn’t a crackerjack nutball and who rejected speaking in sound bites. In other words, a viable candidate with an actual history of being a true public servant. Given the hegemonically approved, focus group-generated empty suits who are foisted on a hungry populace generation after generation, I voted my conscience. I don’t see such an opportunity now, and we’re all the worse for it.
Who is really excited and gung-ho on either of the choices the powers that be have chosen for us? Anyone? Anyone?
“Seriously. I don’t argue the 2000 election online. ”
aww I like seeing people argue that crap online. It provides the good lulz!
Ralph Nader is NOT a Republican plant, he’s a reptilian humanoid. Doesn’t anybody here read David Icke? Jeez, people, try to keep up…
FACT: George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Ralph Nader, Merle Haggard, and Carrot Top are the top five Illuminati for the North American continent.
It’s not worth taking any chances this time around.
I’ve heard that every election since at least 1968.
MzNicky, Nader is running again – but not on a Green ticket. Which means for my sake, I couldn’t care less if you paid me to.
You know what the worst thing about all of this is?
I have nothing to drink in the house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Feel my pain, people!
I prefer to argue the 2000 election on a special 900-number phone chat line. It costs $6.95 a minute but it gets me off.
Actually, yes. Supported financially, natch, by McCain.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA
Given the asskicking the GOP is about to be dealt, I’m pretty gung-ho.
There is a reason why the Green Party cannot even elect a sexton or fence viewer in the U.S.
Aww, MzNicky, I swear I’ve never said that before about it being not worth risking. I’m not especially proud of saying it now.
Alas, I do, however, believe it to be true. The current political situation in America terrifies me. And yes, I do mean “terrify”. Maybe I’m a coward, but this is some scary, scary shit. Worse in a lot of ways than McCarthyism was. We’re *this* close to the edge of the abyss, as far as I can see. The loss of habeas corpus is no laughing matter.
Okay, I’m out for the night. Ya’ll be good.
Doug, do you even bother to check the internet before saying things that are so patently ridiculous?
Anyone who voted for Nader other than those who were voting in Florida had zero effect on the election. So give it a rest. Or go kill all those Floridian Nader lovers. Meanwhile, switch to the decaf.
Isn’t Barr also the anti-choice ranter who paid for his wife’s abortion with a fucking check. Didn’t he make her get the abortion because he thought the kid wasn’t his?
Dumb AND a hypocrite. Who woulda thunk it?
“Is Nader running again? I don’t think so.”
Sadly, no! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/24/nader-announces-run-for-p_n_88163.html
“In other words, a viable candidate with an actual history of being a true public servant. Given the hegemonically approved, focus group-generated empty suits who are foisted on a hungry populace generation after generation, I voted my conscience. I don’t see such an opportunity now, and we’re all the worse for it.”
I like what you say here, but the word “viable” has no place in this otherwise unobjectionable paragraph. And the word “viable” is also key to the point.
“Who is really excited and gung-ho on either of the choices the powers that be have chosen for us? Anyone? Anyone?”
not me. I wanted edwards or dodd, two actual liberals. But you people wanted to take a chance on the female centrist and the black guy! (only democrats would look at the most critical election ever and say ‘lets run a woman or a black guy! that’ll show em!’ I’m not that racist or sexist, but come on….)
Jillian darling: I couldn’t agree with you more. It is terrifying. It’s always been terrifying. Vietnam and the “domino theory” of communistic takeover of our sacred way of life was terrifying. My parents were terrified when Harry Truman dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, convinced that it was the end of the world as they knew it. It’s always terrifying.
The current thugs in power are a new kind of piece of work, no doubt about it. I guess after many many years I’m just growing really weary of always slouching toward the voting booth and dutifully pulling the lever for whichever D the prevailing power structure has told me is the best possible choice for teh future. Yes, master. Will vote Dem. Yes master. Anything else master?
Aside from calling McCain wwIII and all that I just really need one logical example of why the Democrats are safer? I get the common notion that the Democrats are more peaceful and liberal but seriously I don’t see any god damn basis for this. I don’t know if it’s the fact that they started almost every major war of the 20th century that we’ve been involved in or that they rallied en masse to approve and enable the few wars they didn’t get the chance to start, but I’m tired of trying to kick the football on the whole war thing. If the Dems aren’t as pro-war as the republicans they haven’t proven it yet.
I’ve heard their talk, but for the last two years they haven’t had the republican foil and guess what, the same bullshit agenda is still getting carried out.
I fell you on the habeus thing but from my angle Obama just signed off on giving away a big part of the fourth amendment, breaking one promise while making another not to abuse the new powers he’s expecting to have. It’s great that he said he wouldn’t bomb Iran.. he also said he wouldn’t back down on FISA… so seriously… what the hell.
Oh, and Jillian, leave JK Polk alone. That was one awesome president, who refused to run for a second term! (although he may have not run cause he was dying of cholera, and not out of political conviction, but who knows!)
MzNicky:
Who is really excited and gung-ho on either of the choices the powers that be have chosen for us? Anyone? Anyone?
Since this are serious thread and I are serious dude, I thank you for the chance to answer. I am. Simply because I see in Obama a canny politician in the mold of former Chicago mayor the late Harold Washington. Much like Obama now, Washington’s ascendancy heralded serious racial strife in his party. Much like Obama now, he took some heat from his base for things he did and said in the service of getting elected.
And much like Washington then, I hear and see in Obama a man with a heart.
I don’t think he’s come to save us or anything. I just hope he remembers Harold as he walks this path, and that he duplicates his old mentor’s successes and avoids his mistakes.
Wow, that got long. Sorry.
The difference, for me at least, is that I see on the part of the Republicans a concerted effort to pander to the most reactionary elements of American society – elements which have, over the last thirty to forty years, deliberately set up structures to parallel our public sector. This includes schools, universities, libraries, governmental structures, armed forces, other stuff I’m too tired to think of. These people are dangerous and scary as fuck, and they are positioning themselves in such a way as to replace our public sector structures with their public sector structures. This is similar to the approach the National Socialists used to take power in Germany, and it scares the living piss out of me to see the right-wing Christians in America using this tack, because it works.
Voting Democratic keeps the people who are completely indebted to the scary Christian Right out of the White House.
Best reason I have for voting “D” is right here. Take it or leave it.
Well, that and the fact that I swear I’ll come to your house and make you dinner.
I hate Polk. He was a racist, and he started the Mexican-American war.
And he smelled like feet.
Do I get dinner if I was already planning to vote for Obama? Cause if not, well, hell, Nader ’08!!!!!111!!!
Not only will I cook dinner for you if you vote Obama, I’ll compound your car for you.
Trim your hedges?
Give you a pedicure?
Name your price.
Jillian,
IIRC you’re a teacher- quite possibly the least appreciated and most politically expendable profession in the country. WE should be making dinner for YOU.
In point of fact, I volunteer the hospitality of my home at your convenience. Caviar and champagne on request.
eh. Steve I think hitler is commonly credited with starting WW2, also germany with WW1, Arguably the french started the vietnam war, and if not them, it would surely be eisenhower. other than that you got panama?! (reagan) gulf 1 (bush) gulf 2 (bush 2), so, ahh, sadly no?
Oh and Jill, if yer in seattle, yer welcome to come drink white wine out of the bottle at my house…
We are the worldddddd!!!!!
C’mon, everybody!
oh and limited involvement in the spanish civil war, but hey, who wasn’t involved, and hemingway was there and he made up a lot of cool cocktails so it couldn’t have been that bad…. Did i miss a war?
OH come on Jillian, all the presidents were racist scum bags back then!
jillian: If you promise to start posting some again, I promise to once again pull the D lever.
Oh who am I kidding. Even if you don’t post again I’ll still pull the D lever. Same as it ever was.
But he smelled like feet!
I’ll be back soon, I promise. I’ve been pretty sick for a while, but I’m starting to feel better.
Isn’t Obama making a big play for Christians this election? The very evangelicals who are the far right Christians tend to be split 50/50 between Obama and McCain, or so I’ve read somewhere… actually, I think it was here. Also, Obama has been actively snubbing the entire Muslim community so as not to alienate Christians. He said he wants to show Christians that he shares their faith so they can vote for him. IF that isn’t pandering I don’t know what is. Once again, I don’t see how one is better than the other.
Great. I yoosta be a Republican, until I figured out what crooks they all were.
Now that I’m a leftie (but not a Democrat) all I can think of for a supportive slogan for the Blues is “Democrats – The Last Refuge of the (D)esperate”.
Damnitall, I refuse, refuse to be brought down by this tidal wave of depression and despair. Serves ya’ll right for buying into the Obama hype. Better than Bush was good enough to get my vote from the get-go. It still is. And if occasionally in my secret heart I pray for better than Clinton…well, what’s it to ya?
Steve, the Christians he’s pandering to aren’t evil
And for me to say that, being the hard core atheist who thinks all religion is the tool of credulous fools, hopefully means something.
Not all Christians are part of the Christian Identity movement, for instance. But there are plenty of CI proponents supporting the Republican party.
If that doesn’t scare you, I’m out of scary ammo. I’ll just have to fall back on my offer to make you dinner.
Serves ya’ll right for buying into the Obama hype.
Who’s y’all?
WW2: Roosevelt… after promising isolationism… granted that was “necessary” but Pearl Harbor was no reason to invade France. Aslo, Hiroshima.. WTF
WWI: Wilson, once again we didn’t really need to get involved but given it’s been so many years since it happened it’s generally regarded as “necessary”. Also, if you want to get technical about who started the actual fighting it was Serbia, Austria, and the Vatican. Stop hating on Germany.
Korea: Truman. Stupidly.
Viet Nam: The French? am I missing something? Johnson did the whole Gulf of Tomkin thing and Kennedy sent the first advisers in. Nixon was elected because he ran on an anti-war platform.. like someone else I know.. guess what happened.
Bay of Pigs: Kennedy, though arguably Eisenhower.
Panama, Grenada, Lebanon: Reagan, I don’t know if the Dems supported this I don’t really care. They each lasted like 5 days and except for Lebanon achieved their objectives. Granted more bullshit war but at least the death toll is significantly less than the Democrat led wars.
Gulf 1: Bush, with Democratic support
Kosovo: Clinton
Gulf 2: Bush with Democratic support.
so, sadly yes.
Damn, you should see the lightning show going on outside.
KAPOWY!
oh come on jill, they all smelled like feet, hell we didn’t even have toilet paper when he was president! http://nobodys-perfect.com/vtpm/ExhibitHall/Informational/tphistory.html
I just really need one logical example of why the Democrats are safer?
They aren’t right now, there is very little accountability. We get that through online financing of campaigns. Have you forgotten that only four short years ago Dean shocked everyone by funding his campaign through online donations? Fast forward to today and we have a full fledged presidential candidate who has rejected public financing because he can raise more money online. It’s absolutely stunning if you think about it. And even more good news is that there is the beginnings of a real ground swell of progressive candidates who are funded largely through online donations. More and more every day. It’s all happening unbelievably fast.
What, it isn’t fast enough for you? Too bad. It has taken the right 40 years of grassroots organizing to get to where they are now. It will take us at least that long.
Thing is, people get locked into their narrow view of just those things they saw or read about today or the past couple of days and we tend to forget about the larger picture. People also tend to have this idea that history is fixed and determined. It isn’t, we don’t know the future, but we tend to think we do.
Remember Ellison’s ending to The Terminator? We are in a car rushing headlong into the night and it’s pitch black except for a pathetic ten yards or so lit by the headlights. That’s us, that’s humanity, we don’t know the future. But that emptiness is too much to face so onto that black screen we project all out nightmares.
Calm down, relax. Read this, I am not sure where to turn, for a different perspective. There are too many like minded people in here and it’s sounding kind of like an echo chamber.
Who’s y’all?
Morse code, Bubba? I thought you were up on the latest developments in difference engines and all that technical folderol. They have this thing called the tele-o-phone, I hear.
Anyway, that was me being gumpy at the world. All this week in the lefty blogosphere I have seen nearly naught but despair at the betrayal wrought by the Magickal Unity Pony. For two days, I’ve mostly been able to keep my distance and make snarky (but alas, not funny, else I’d have posted them somewhere) comments to myself about all the sturm und drang.
But to see my fellow stalwarts here, in the place I consider my home (yeah I know I have my own blog- zip it) to fall to keening and fighting over this one issue is really starting to hurt.
So, shorter me: Ya’ll be funny, damn it!
er, what? stevie steve steve!
“I don’t know if it’s the fact that they started almost every major war of the 20th century that we’ve been involved in”
key word being “started” not ‘became involved in’.
Sure the gulf of tonkin was bad, but we were already knee deep in vietnamese shit thanks to the french and eisenhower (who sent the first advisors in). I’ll give you Korea. Eisenhower is also responsible for the Bay of Pigs, but thats not a war, and less than a dozen americans were killed. WWI was necessary and pretty much the germans fault, but also the french. the austrians and the serbs were bit players at best. And kosovo was started for sure by the serbs and clinton only went in with a limited bombing campaign under UN and NATO saction. Also not really a war, along with panama, grenada (we literally captured the holiday inn), and lebanon (at least not for us).
@noen
I see your point, but… eh… he has our money, more than enough to win the election what reason is there for him to pander to us any longer?
It is the future, the year 2000, things are much different since the robot uprising of the late 90’s. We no longer say yes, we say affirmative. There is no more mistreatment of the elephants, there is only one dance, the robo-boogey, and the humans are dead.
Once again, I don’t see how one is better than the other.
That’s because you are an idiot.
Haha: “Hope.” Teh only hope I’m clinging to is teh hope that teh rawk is not dead. I saw the Black Angels last night, and they assured me that teh rawk will go on unabated as long as they have something to say about it.
What do we want?!
Meh!
When do we want it?!
As soon as is politically expedient!!
And this is the sort of delightful behavior that wins so many people over to the Democratic party.
Stevenovitch,
OK, that gave me a chuckle. I am replenished.
Back to the wars.
The Democratic Party: Fascism with a Smile.
Looks like Jonah was right.
what reason is there for him to pander to us any longer?
The next election? And the one after that? Obama does have things he’d like to get done. They are no where near the same as what Bush wanted. That said I’m not a true believer. I’m pragmatic, I know Obama is a centrist but he is still mile sand miles removed from the crooks in charge now. When I vote for him I’m hiring a man to do a job. I’m not buying a dream.
There is a difference. Character does matter and there really are good people in this world. Even though Bush has so poisoned our thoughts that we think everyone is a sociopath… it just ain’t so.
My hope is that we can get real accountability going. My fear is that the corporate power structure will do something to counter that. Maybe “Net Neutrality” will be their bid to seize the internet. I don’t know. It’s worth a shot.
@poopy Mcpants.
you are full of all kinds of tomfoolery. Eisenhower’s complicity in both events (VN and BOP) is arguable, I don’t want to argue about it but clearly Kennedy the big fat fucking (D) that he was didn’t do anything differently. Also, I’d like to point out that the number of Americans killed in a the bay of pigs doesn’t constitute an actual body count, as lots of other people were killed mostly because we betrayed them.
Ok so I should have said “got us involved” instead of “started” though in terms of American foreign policy involving political parties I don’t really see the difference, as it basically boils down to someone having the bright idea that sending Americans somewhere to kill and be killed would be cool.
What’s your definition of “really a war”? For me it involves sending people with machine guns somewhere else to kill other people who may or may not have machine guns.
Finally, WWI was not started or encouraged by Germany.. I have some suggested reading on this subject, but aside from the vatican’s implication it’s pretty common knowledge (I thought) that Germany essentially got dragged in to a dick swinging contest between Austria and Serbia via it’s alliance with Austria.
And this is the sort of delightful behavior that wins so many people over to the Democratic party.
Sorry, Jillian. I have little tolerance for deliberately obtuse and trollish rhetorical questions like …
show me any difference between the Democrats and Republicans
Because as soon as I do … like … hmm … the minimum wage … or selling National Parks … or drilling in ANWR … the troll will just change the subject.
@noen
I can see clearly that almost anyone is better than Bush, I just don’t see how that falls along party lines, or how what Obama will actually do can be predictably different than what a republican would do…. as for the next election.. we can be fooled again.
That being said, I’ll probably vote for him anyway… but damnit, he shouldn’t get a free pass on this for being “better than a McCain”
Back from the bar. What did I miss?
Oh…
I see…
Hoo boy.
The Democratic Party: Fascism with a Smile.
And Ted Kennedy is Hitler. And John Kerry is Mussolini.
And Ruth Bader Ginsberg uses the Constitution as a tampon.
The problem is, Douglas, that on the issues that matter the most to me right now – anything relating to putting the brakes on the slide toward authoritarian government in this country – the Dems have been nothing but enablers.
I care about those other things; I really do. But right now, the only thing on my mind politically is turning this country back into the vague semblance of a democracy that it used to be. If I could get that by lowering the minimum wage to six cents an hour, or turning Yellowstone into a Disney park, or clubbing a baby seal in the head myself, I’d do it at this point.
I’ve never been a single issue voter before in my life. I’ve always held people like that in a bit of scorn, to be honest. I’ve never been a Democrat, but I’ve also never really had a problem with voting Democratic, either. But the Dems on FISA, the Dems on MCA, the Dems on Iraq….
I’m holding on to some hope that if the Dems grab the Executive, they’ll knock this bullshit off. But to be fair, based on their conduct for the last eight years, couldn’t a reasonable person wonder how realistic that hope is?
“but damnit, he shouldn’t get a free pass on this for being “better than a McCain”
Unfortunately, that’s the only option we’re currently presented with.
I would love for this country to adopt the pluralistic policies that have enabled the EU to far surpass the US in any capacity but military excess.
But that’s not the case.
Obama’s better. No one else has a chance.
We can’t have a third RepubliKKlan term.
We just can’t.
I can see clearly that almost anyone is better than Bush, I just don’t see how that falls along party lines, or how what Obama will actually do can be predictably different than what a republican would do
I think you should re-evaluate that sentence. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. McCain will fuck this country in way we have yet to dream of. Obama will begin the long slog of mopping up the shit.
It will never be 1999 again.
I’m sorry, Douglas, but what exactly has the Democratic party done in the past 20 years to convince you that they are anything other than the other side of the same coin as the GOP?
God, now I’m so depressed I just want to die.
I’m going to bed.
And then I’m going to buy good Scotch tomorrow.
And then I’m going to drink it and watch cartoons all day.
Maybe when I wake up, I won’t live in a terrifyingly authoritarian pseudodemocracy standing on the verge of an economic meltdown that just might usher into power the worst of the political thugs in our midst. Because if it starts looking any more like 1932 around here lately, I might just start looking for work as a cabaret singer.
G’night, all.
Night folks.
I hope you got this thing worked out by the time I wake up tomorrow.
Jillian–
Get the Balvenie 15-year-old Single Barrel.
Dark, delicious, smooth, strong–96 proof.
55-60 bucks. It’ll be the best you ever spent.
One last thing….those ways McCain is going to fuck our country if he gets elected, noen?
I’m pretty sure I have dreamed of them.
I’ve followed the political and social convulsions of Weimar Germany well enough to have a good idea of what they’d look like, anyway.
“Plant” may not be the most appropriate term. I’m far too lazy to look up the details but I recall that in Pennsylvania, for example, the RNC collected signatures for his ballot petition and funded him rather lavishly. As I recall, that same scenario was executed in several states.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, lissen up you nincompoops! This is politics we’re talking. First rule in politics is, you have to win to have any power. Repeat: YOU HAVE TO WIN. I have no idea whether Obama is gonna swing left after he’s in the House Formerly Known as White, I can only hope so. I *hope* that his recent, notable move to the center (coming just after cinching the nomination – hmmm, how about that) is merely pandering. I hope it is. Let’s remind ourselves of something here: this is America, land of morons and you can’t get elected without some pandering. And if you don’t get elected….anyone? anyone? Bueller?
If you can’t understand that a McCain presidency would be an absolute unmitigated total fucking disaster for this country, not least for the SCOTUS packing that would occur, then please, please, please, just shut the fuck up and trust us on this.
Politics is ugly. You don’t always get what you want. You almost never get what you want. Sometimes though, you get what you need. We need a dem prez.
It sounded good at the time Jillian. Don’t I get points for style?
Am aware of the assertion, just haven’t seen any substantiation on the matter. Curiously, Obama has just announced support for a bill that Bush also supports… fully , and justified his support with the very same “terrorism is scary” frame that Bush uses.
Look, it all comes down to the choices you make when it matters, so far, since he’s been nominated he’s 0 for 3 with me and that isn’t good.
As Jillian said, on the issues that matter to me, constitution, war, executive powers, the (D)s seem to be on the same team as the (R)s and in my opinion, these issues are at the root of the issues that you brought up. So if we get Obama the minimum wage might go up a bit, ANWR will be safe for 4 years… but it doesn’t make one shit of difference to me if 4 years later the next guy has enough power to summarily undo all of that (which it looks like he might). Fine, since the Dems have been power minimum wage has gone up to 7.25, given gas prices, the war deficit, etc. that isn’t an impressive difference… sorry. Oh yeah, and I guess ANWR has officially not been drilled as much as it wasn’t drilled in the previous 6 years when they weren’t in power.
Legalize said,
June 26, 2008 at 6:54
I’m sorry, Douglas, but what exactly has the Democratic party done in the past 20 years to convince you that they are anything other than the other side of the same coin as the GOP?
—
You’re right. There is no difference. I am a Democrat, therefore I am Hitler. I believe in Evolution, therefore I believe in Creationism. I hate bigotry, therefore I love bigotry.
Whatever helps you keep up your smug, self-righteous apathy, dood.
So if we get Obama the minimum wage might go up a bit, ANWR will be safe for 4 years… but it doesn’t make one shit of difference to me if 4 years later the next guy has enough power to summarily undo all of that (which it looks like he might).
That’s why elections are evil, Steve-O. The whole thing can change every 4 years !!11!!!
Teh evil 111!!!
No dipshit, if you elect a guy who has the balls to put the presidency back into it’s constitutional limits then the 4 years thing isn’t a problem. Not that that will ever happen, mostly because of people like you.
Komrad stevenovitch, you need to adjust your sarcasm detector.
Hey Peej, where were you getting those POOP characters again?
It doesn’t work so well when I’ve had too much port.
I don’t recall which particular code pages they came from; this place is my go-to for unicode. The ‘P’ is, I think, on “lettler-like symbols” and the ‘O’ I just can’t remember.
The Obama you see is not the Obama you’ll get.
ittdgy – I’m looking forward to what a clever guy like you can do with the vast wealth of unicode.
komrade S – vintage, one hopes. Though I tend toward cheapish Cockburn or Dow myself.
oops
oops again – sorry RB, I didn’t look, thought it was u no who doing the morse code. My previous statement still stands though.
What DL nation said, but…. the folk who couldn’t work out how to use a ballot properly in 2000, I mean, for fucks sake, how difficult is it. Scotland had the same shit back in 2007, people that couldn’t understand how to mark preferences (1, 2, 3, etc), so its not a Florida or Yankee problem. What I say is disenfranchise anyone stupid enough not to understand how to vote, anyone that dumb doesn’t deserve a say!
ha…
The principles of democracy seem to be that everyone has a say. Not because it leads to the best results but because it should be a basic human right for everyone to have some say in what’s being done to/for them with their own tax dollars. Makes sense to me.
Aside from that before you go railing against stupid people it’s wise to remember that there are more of them than there are of you (presuming you aren’t stupid.) Hence if we were to vote on some criteria for who is allowed to vote, the stupid people would most definitely be in, while most others would probably be out.
Have a nice day.
bollocks, didn’t work, pe jay, how you get the 8?
Steve,
i was being sarcastic, but thanks for playing…..
????????????????????????
????????????????????????
????????????????????????
????????????????????????
sure pick on the drunk guy with nowhere else to go….
????????????????????????
?????????????????????
asdfas
Get that magic 8 by typing ➑
(ampersand)(pound sing)10129(semicolon)
I’m not American. I don’t like centre-rightists. I don’t like Obama. And I don’t vote in the UK. But I would vote Democrat this November.
And I think we all know that if we’d known how close it would be in 2000, a lot of Naderites would have done the right thing.
“Eisenhower’s complicity in both events (VN and BOP) is arguable,”
Not really, its well documented. eisenhower both sent the first advisors to the nam and approved the plan for the bay of pigs, a clusterfuck which was laid on kennedy in his first month in office. The number of americans killed is central to the point as who gives a flying fuck about imperialist cuban exiles and a stupid fucking plan to invade Cuba, at a time it had around 10 planes in its airforce? (read The Secret Government)
“because we betrayed them.”
Also no, the plan was just that stupid. Kennedy actually approved naval air power, but the got the time zone wrong. everything else was exactly as planned (except getting thier asses handed to them).
Ok so I should have said “got us involved” instead of “started” though in terms of American foreign policy involving political parties I don’t really see the difference, as it basically boils down to someone having the bright idea that sending Americans somewhere to kill and be killed would be cool.
“What’s your definition of “really a war”? ”
I mean a war where the major achievement isn’t taking over a Holiday Inn. There were less than 100 fatalities in this WAR! oh noes!
“Finally, WWI was not started or encouraged by Germany..”
except germany declared war on both russia and france, not the other way around, but if you want to blame some minor powers, go ahead!
woops, left that middle sentence in the by accident. too much wiky.
oh and not to pick on you steve, but “Hence if we were to vote on some criteria for who is allowed to vote, the stupid people would most definitely be in, while most others would probably be out.”
not really. Usually its those with power that say who votes (white male land owner ring any bells?) not plebecites.
… & the answer to “why do we bother voting?”
Easy.
To irk the bigwigs, of course.
It pisses them off no end.
Looks to be one of the least apathetic elections in the living memory of a lot of Americans – & that’s a good thing. Hasn’t even gone down yet, & the dividends are already rolling in. Just look at how many of the Pundit Squadron you’ve been seeing looking ever more like they just ate a super-sized Pigshit Sundae with maggots for sprinkles as their little fairy-tales fall flatter & flatter, their self-imposed “narratives” grow stupider & stupider, & they just can’t get out from in front of all those bright lights & cameras, because their pathological attention-whoring has got them by the short-&-curlies … now, picture those craven corporate-cock-smokers having to chow down on some old-school Crow Pie on Election Night … hell, that alone should be enough of a motivator right there.
Don’t just vote for Obama because he’s the best realistic chance you have for getting some democracy on – do it because I want to see Pat Buchanan cry like a jilted sophomore, while Rush Limbaugh lays in his hot-tub & quietly washes down a big baggie of Percodan with vodka. I’m a mean bugger, mean enough to want to be there for their long-overdue comeuppance – & I’m getting impatient.
You’re still debating NADER? Jesus Fuck – you may as well be debating DEWEY. Get a time-machine or get a clue.
Well Documented? No it isn’t:
Bay of Pigs was ordered by Kennedy. Eisenhower order it’s initial planning but he never carried it out… who knows why.
Also viet nam advisers.. well documented indeed five bucks says you can find different sources with different attitudes.
Um, what the hell are you talking about?
Hrmph, really who gives a shit if 100 people is more than you and everyone you know, I want to see entire cities wiped out before I take this shit seriously. It’s not a “war” it’s a… thingy, 100 people… please I kill that many before lunch.
Once again, you’re on fucking crack.
Russia declared war first.. on Austria, because Austria declared war on Serbia, because Russia told Serbia that it had their backs, and so Serbia got really cocky when it came to the issue of it’s continued territorial expansion and the Vatican’s approval of such take overs. Germany, bound by its alliance to Austria had to declare war on Russia, and understanding that France was Russia’s key ally declared war on them too because French mobilization was (rightfully) considered extremely dangerous.
Hrm, I wonder under the impression that American elections tend to be wide open and anyone old idiot can vote in them. Silly, me.
?????
If life has taught me one thing, it is not to post Unicode while drunk.
Yeah boy Stevenovitch, nothing like disputed Wikipedia entries to argue a point.
If you are going to engage in revisionist history (which is not bad per se, but requires several serious cites to places with .edu in the URL), and especially if you are going to engage in hateful rhetoric, get your ducks in a row first.
BTW, “Russia declared war first” is a legalism worthy of Addington, right up there with “we don’t torture”.
Completely OT: Gulbis 7-5. Barack Hussein Federer cannot have any worries about this tournament as Djokovic is out, Davydenko is out, and Mr. Rafa essentially got through his first-round match with someone nobody ever heard of.
Gulbis BROKE RAFA, folks! He was down 40-15.
I hope the Obama folks understand that this is getting into the MSM. The press conference was covered on MSNBC, not to mention that an actual journalist asked him a question about this. The Caucus said in so many words that he was “backing away” from his position on the filibuster. This is getting to be beyond a question of civil liberties which too few of even Obama supporters care deeply about and moving into a question of honesty and straightforwardness. Voters now believe in about the same quantities that Obama and McCain are honest and trustworthy.
Real men win on clay. You Wimbledon snobs are the ne plus ultra of elitists.
Awesome flame war, D.N Nation. I hope this keeps the fire going, and maybe makes you think a bit.
Despite your well-reasoned, if profane, analysis of the winner take all system, it is in fact that system that is the problem. Parliaments, people. Coalition governments. They work. Fix the system. Who says that? Nobody in the US.
I won’t vote for Obama because he won’t fix what I want him to fix. That’s it. That’s what I vote for. You can’t throw me off of principles by swearing and logic that amounts to an obscene 10th grade civics class. Get a grip.
In my state, Illinois, Obama will almost assuredly win. Therefore, my vote DOESN’T COUNT. If we had a different system, it would. So I’m not voting for anyone.
I will not support him on the streets because he does not support my positions on the issues that matter to me. I understand fully well that this place is packed with people from the west coast who truly care about things like gay marriage and animal rights that matter not at all to me. I want an end to militarism. I want a reform of the entire voting system. Sounds ludicrous, right? But so did an end to segregation.
If anyone’s willing to actually stand up for these things, I’ll march. Otherwise, YOU fuck off, douchebag, because you’re arguing about the relative merits of Cheetos vs. Doritos when the real issue comes to people living and dying.
PS Scandinavia is gorgeous this time of year. Especially Copenhagen. Socialism, why not? Really, why not?
Rafa gets a break of his own: up 2-1, 2nd set. All this can be covered at the wimbledon.org blog 🙂
PS it actually is sexist and misogynistic to be talking about Federer and Nadal in the wake of this. I wouldn’t be surprised if Iris shows up to scold us.
Hey, Rafa was showing better signs of being able to win this tournament than he ever has in New York!
Yes, that Ivanovic-Dechy match was for the ages. Venus is fending off trouble as well.
Are you just reading off the blog updates or are you watching the Wimbledon Live stream?
Also women’s, Martinez Sanchez over Mirza in the third 9-7 after fighting off five match points. Sounds like Venus has her game back together, 3-1 in the second.
And Venus makes it into the third round despite 26 unforced errors. Straight sets, and apparently a minor wardrobe malfunction.
Vote for the Democrat!
I swear, if you do, I will personally come to your house and make you my extra-special banana-lime-coconut-rum bread!
Jillian, I live in Florida too, so I might just take you up on that.
Does it matter if I was planning to vote for the Democrat anyway, even if I am not at all enthusiastic about it?
Agreed, with one qualm*.
I’m with you, but it won’t happen in our lifetime or our children’s lifetimes. Sorry. And voting for a fraud like Nader wouldn’t/didn’t solve anything. Yes, I remember the calls in ’00…that Nader was gonna finally punch a hole in the two-party system! Woo!
Eight years later, and the big 2 are stronger than ever. What have we learned?
I’m for the legalization of things that Obama isn’t for. I’m anti-death penalty; he apparently is in extreme circumstances.
I’m voting for him because between he and the rest of the field, he combines best-chance-to-win with agrees-with-a-relevant-percentage-of-what-I-believe the best.
Compromise. If I voted for someone who was to fix what I wanted them to fix, I’d fucking vote for myself. I don’t think I’m on the ballot anywhere.
There’s one easy way to get out of a Chinese finger trap. You’re doing it wrong.
Me too. There’s one mainstream candidate who’ll get us closer than the other mainstream candidates.
And then there’s ones who really follow this platform. They will not be elected. So.
Also, I will again note- if this was the ideal, if this was the plan, why did people vote for Freaking RALPH NADER? Why? Why? Why didn’t anyone do any research beyond the grade-school-biography of the man and his ridiculous platitudes?
No, I’m arguing about the relative merits of Cheetos and a lobotomy, while you’re harping that neither are good for you. Well you’re right, congrats, but if I’ve got to choose friggin one of them, I’ll go with the Jonah snacks, thanks.
1) I got my ass kicked royally in taxes this year. I’d like to not make it worse.
2) No black people. I live in Atlanta. I enjoy the mix.
3) Just leave, if you wanna. Nothing’s stopping you. We’re all broken here; nothing worth saving.
* Winner-takes-all generally takes the fringe loonies out of play. As much as I’d love to see more progressive ideals promoted in federal government, a parliamentary system would result in some serious Fred Phelps types being able to pass laws. We could work it out by, you know, defeating these wackadoos at the polls, but heebie-jeebies nonetheless.
This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is. This is a paragraph detailing just how broken the system is.
This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are. This is a paragraph describing how inept the current major candidates are.
This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely. This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely. This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely. This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely. This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely. This is a paragraph describing how I won’t vote for someone who doesn’t share my views entirely.
Given all that I’ve said, this is exactly why…I’m voting for Larry Johnson! Because he’s a lefty! I swear he is! I heard it once! I read something about it once! He’s clearly the candidate I’ve been waiting for! And if you dare question his motives/current credentials, instead of addressing the point, I’m just going to repeat the first thee paragraphs! I’m teh winnar!
I’m voting for Obama because he hasn’t done enough shit to make me despise him yet. It’s pathetic that this is what it finally boils down to, but even this is more than I could say for Clinton.
Do I expect major change with Obama? No.
Am I excited? Yeah, but only because all the crackers are going to have a black president.
Also, after the past eight years, I’m looking forward to a president who can speak coherent English, even if it’s bullshit. I’m tired of hitting the mute button or changing stations.
It’s not a big thing. No, wait, it really is.
Oh steve! whats this sparklenotes BS?
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/65vn-2.htm
“Eisenhower order it’s initial planning but he never carried it out… who knows why.”
Because he knew it was a stinker so he stuck it on kennedy, who followed the plan to the T and approved naval air support outside of the plan. Dont quote wikipedia at me, read a book. (The Secret Government is one I recommend).
“Um, what the hell are you talking about?”
Im talking about what even your revisionist wiki article says, the exiles got thier asses handed to them.
And If you think everyone is always allowed to vote in a democracy you dont know shit about democracy, especially american democracy. nuff said.
Actually, it was the Germans who declared war on us. I suppose we could have said, “no thanks” but it is considered very rude to refuse a war when one is offered.
After reading this whole thread, I can honestly say I’m glad I missed this party.
Hello from Switzerland.
I’ve just read the first comments and I must say :
VOTE FOR OBAMA. Maybe Obama is just another shiny but breakable toy that will desappoint every one, but we are sure that McCain is fucking dangerous.
The world get raped by your stupid cowboy president for 8 years, and you just say “oh whatever, politicians are all liars. I won’t bother voting this time” ?
If McCain wins, I’m sending my CV to Ben Laden.
[…] should angry all those Hillary supporters who have sworn never to forgive be the only intransigents refusing to hear what their own candidate is telling […]
I leave a response each time I like a article on a website or I have something
to add to the conversation. Usually it is triggered by the fire displayed in the post I
browsed. And after this article Sadly, No! ? Why do we bother voting?
. I was actually excited enough to leave a leave
a responsea response 😉 I do have 2 questions for you if it’s okay. Is it simply me or does it appear like some of these responses look as if they are left by brain dead folks? 😛 And, if you are posting on additional sites, I would like to follow you. Could you list every one of all your community pages like your Facebook page, twitter feed, or linkedin profile?