Too bad they couldn’t take their own advice when a certain Democrat was President; they’ve got no room to complain now.

Or, in other words, “Applesauce, BITCH!”

Oh, and while I think of it, have any of you seen Steyr’s whining today? I think you’d like it – he’s calling for a draft.

hmm not yet. I’ll go check it out.

Unfortunately, the “we all need to get on the same page–mine!” notion can be found in a number of settings. Otherwise-intelligent liberals get very lathered up pver Irresponsible Leftists who have the temerity not to toe the corporate-approved DLC line, and argue endlessly that any stand on any issue to the left of David Duke will alienate the vast majority of the nation. They decry this, of course, and go on at length about the need for more progressive legislation, but that such legislation needs to wait until…well, it just needs to wait, that’s all.

Stuff like that coming from Marshall Wittman is laughable. Stufff like that coming from people whose opinions I generally respect…

Yeah! even with high gas prices and record oil company profits, us Dems keep taking the Highway, raher than their way?

whassup with that?

Let me see..when was the last time this bunch hesitated to do something insane because of lack of national unity?

Isn’t the goal of the Repugs to fracture society? cf. anything to do with the religious right.

They fracture society, then whine about a lack of unity. The fault for the lack of unity lies with the Democrats (so they accuse). Anyone professing to be a Democrat that mentions unity as a requirement is an undercover agitator.

So either we destroy Iran’s nuclear program by force, or Iran is going to get the bomb, likely provoking nuclear proliferation throughout the region.

One sentence, so many logical fallacies. False dilemma, slippery slope, begging the question . . . I think he’s going for some sort of record here.

Not to mention . . .

1. bombs don’t really subscribe to religions
2. bombs don’t float so well
3. I can’t even picture a “more hawkish” American approach
4. the “dovish Dems” have been pretty damned hawkish, which is in large part why we’re in this fine mess
5. since when does the current administration wait for a national consensus to “take decisive action”? Unless he’s acknowledging that the utter madness in the Middle East has Bush/Cheney’s indecisive fingerprints all over it . . .

That damned Kurtz just harshed my lovely Sunday morning. And it was going so well.

Gonna do something on the Steyn thing. It’s too crazy NOT to. Will have something up in a while.

“That means a whole lot of Islamic bombs floating around the Middle East for the indefinite future.”

How about those Islamic bombs floating around already – you know, the Pakistani ones?

So Iran gets nuclear weapons and they start handing them out to everyone and their brother? Really? Is this based on some convoluted Muslims-are-all-unified-in-their-desire-to-nuke-America theory? ‘Cause you know, Pakistan is Muslim and they didn’t hand out the blueprints when they successfully tested their bomb.

I continue to find it fascinating that all these ass-clowns calling for American Military action against Iran NEVER seem to be willling to actually discuss the consequences, both possible and likely, of these actions. It’s always left to us nay – sayers and peacniks to point out that launching another war in that region when our people and goals are so fragile and so exposed would without a doubt be the single most counter productive action we could possibly take. Just once I’d like to hear one of these murderous war – mongers go on to say some like “Of course, there could well be numerous negative consequences to these actions including a disasterous regional war, lots and lots of dead Americans and economic collapse”. You know, just a tiny bit of intelectual honesty. I know, nevah gonna happen…

mikey

The difference between Iran and Pakistan is that Iran has a multi-billion dollar propaganda industry set up to defame America.

You can see the Iranian propaganda in action in Obsession: What the War on Terror is Really About.

Granted, the left probably has no problem with young Arab girls talking about how they hate Bush.

Absolutely right, Mikey. I thought BushCheney Co. was supposed to be the CEO administration? That they were supposed to bring the business model to the federal government? I’m not a big fan of the business model being used anywhere but in business (and not even there most of the time) but at least that model has requirements: where’s the neocon prospectus? cost-benefit analysis? rationale? short-, medium- and long-term projections? Maybe we naysayers and peaceniks need to recruit a few game theorists and high-profile profit gurus to join the debate from a purely pragmatic perspective.

Hard to imagine why any young Arab girl, or boy, would like Bush. It is tragic that Bush has created a situation that generates such hatred.

But on the other point, I prefer defamation (Iran) to nuclear weapons under a tyrant (Pakistan). Iran doesn’t have to spend a nickel, however..we spend billions every month supplying them with new material.

Which country allowed Taliban and AQ to regroup after they were (mostly) driven out of Afghanistan again?

Maybe Gary or Jose can remind me because I’m drawing a blank.

You’re foolish if you blame the hatred coming out of the Middle East on Bush.

The fact of the matter is that the film that I linked you to contains tons of footage from the Arab newsmedia which is essentially propaganda. And the people in those countries have been brainwashed to hate Bush and hate America.

It’s a shame that the Atheists and the Liberals have cozied up to the Islamic Fascist death cult. That cult is determined to kill and destroy the freedom we enjoy, until the time in which the entire world is ruled by their religion.

Did anyone else try Gary Ruppert’s link? I got a YouTube video of the Clash doing Combat Rock — hard to believe Iran would pay billions for that. No girls dissing Bush, but if there had been, well, it could be viewed as an example of that whole freedom thing we claim to be bringing to the world.

“the left probably has no problem with young Arab girls talking about how they hate Bush. ”

Gary, Iranians aren’t Arab.

“And the people in those countries have been brainwashed to hate Bush and hate America.”

Because killing civilians in Iraq and the torture in Abu Graib isn’t nearly enough to do the job!

“the left probably has no problem with young Arab girls talking about how they hate Bush. �

Oh, there’s way more to this statement than just the inaccurancy of Gary thinking Iranians are Arabic.

See, Gary, the left actually has no problem with young Arab girls talking about whatever. See, we don’t think people shouldn’t be allowed to talk. And we don’t think talk is dangerous.

Does the right have problems with young Arab girls talking? it appears they do. Young American girls, too.

Weird.. I put in the correct link at first.

Let me try this, and hopefully the admins won’t change the link.

Obsession: What The War on Terror Is Really About

“It’s a shame that the Atheists and the Liberals have cozied up to the Islamic Fascist death cult. That cult is determined to kill and destroy the freedom we enjoy, until the time in which the entire world is ruled by their religion.:

What’s our angle, man? Where’s the margin in the people who would surely be first against the wall doing this “cozying up” you pulled out of your ass? What do “The Atheists and the Liberals” have to gain in this scenario?

—

Hey, this unity isn’t bad. Why even question the motives of those pushing this talking point. It sounds like a totally positive development. Surely a welcome tonic to the hateful partisan rancor we’ve been forced to endure. Say, that reminds me: know what else is super mega unified? A bundle of sticks tied together. And strong too.

g, I forget the specifics of when the Arab girl portion of Obession is. I’m going to estimate around 20 minutes in.

But, do you seriously think it’s normal for 8 year old girls to talk about how they want to shoot Ariel Sharon and how they think Bush is a pig?

Gary,

Of course it is not normal for 8 year old girls to hate. Our efforts in Iraq have created this situation.

It is not foolish to blame a large fraction of the hate, the new hatred, on Bush. If you believe our efforts in Iraq and the outcome have endeared us to the region, take a long vacation and thing about this logically.

Certainly there is much propaganda over there. But you are living proof of the power of propaganda to shape someone’s thinking.

“But, do you seriously think it’s normal for 8 year old girls to talk about how they want to shoot Ariel Sharon and how they think Bush is a pig?”

Not at all.

It’s a shame that the Atheists and the Liberals have cozied up to the Islamic Fascist death cult. That cult is determined to kill and destroy the freedom we enjoy, until the time in which the entire world is ruled by their religion.

The Patriot Act
Signing Statements
Torture
Domestic Warrantless Surveilance
Local Law Enforcement Surveilance of Peace Activists
Restrictions on Political Speech at Public Political Events
Indefinate Detention without Due Process

Gary, come on, dork. WHO exactly is actively destroying the freedoms we enjoy?

Y’know, Gary, I’ve been reading your contributions for months, and it is obvious that you are utterly terrified. You somehow have come to believe that there are Muslim Terrorists under your bed and in your closet. Look, son. Terrorism is a tactic that will be in use for the long-term As long as there is such a disparity in military capability in the world, people with an axe to grind and without the advanced military capability to force their position will always turn to terror attacks. And in the future, Americans will be at some small level of individual risk, especially if they travel to one of the worlds “hot spots”.

But Gary, honest now, you can relax. America is very strong, very powerful and, while she has lost a great deal of presige under the leadership of your hero, she is still feared. And geographically isolated, which even in the twenty first century matters. They can kill a few people, but so do auto accidents and firearms. The only people who can destroy america and all she stands for is, well, Americans like you. Please think about it…

mikey

gary.

re: Iranian propaganda machine

any way you cut it – turnabout is fair play

You don’t like Iran doing that?

You want the moral high ground?

Then we better knock it off.

“But, do you seriously think it’s normal for 8 year old girls to talk about how they want to shoot Ariel Sharon and how they think Bush is a pig?”

Now what was the name of that Aryan Nation group? The 7 year old twin blonde girls in too-tight clothes? (maybe they were 10?)

Damn you, long term memory.

mikey

terrorism is a tactic that will continue to be in use so long as people like gary react to it.

Of course it is not normal for 8 year old girls to hate. Our efforts in Iraq have created this situation.

So you support the Islamist propaganda that has brainwashed the people in those countries?

The fact is that the left blames America first.

The Islamic-Fascist terrorists blame America first.

Gary, you somehow have come to believe that there are Muslim Terrorists under your bed and in your closet.

I know that shooter in Seattle was a terrorist. The one who shot up a Jewish center in anger. I know that future terrorists operate in Dearborn.

The left lives under a delusion that their freedom is more in danger from Bush than from Islamic-Fascism.

It’s a shame that the Atheists and the Liberals have cozied up to the Islamic Fascist death cult. That cult is determined to kill and destroy the freedom we enjoy, until the time in which the entire world is ruled by their religion.

The shame, Gary, is that you can’t seem to understand the concept of people who exist outside your compartmentalization of them. I don’t pretend to speak for whomever you might be picturing when you say “Atheists and Liberals,” but speaking as one liberal who isn’t interested in theocracy, I wish you were able to see that there’s a difference between crazed members of Al Qaeda / Hizbollah and the millions of Muslims throughout the world (Arab and otherwise) who are interested in neither Islamic fascism nor an Islamic “cult of death.” Just as there are millions of Christians and Jews and agnostics and others throughout the world who are interested in neither the fascism nor the cult of death promoted by neocons (nor, for that matter, the time at which the entire world is ruled by their religion). You might be able to think more critically about all of this if you made the effort to stop conflating religion with ethnicity with geopolitics and to stop assuming all the world’s people support their governments’ actions.

“I know that shooter in Seattle was a terrorist.”

May I introduce you to Buford O’Neal Furrow?

I wish you were able to see that there’s a difference between crazed members of Al Qaeda / Hizbollah and the millions of Muslims throughout the world (Arab and otherwise) who are interested in neither Islamic fascism nor an Islamic “cult of death.�

Yeah, those people exist. But they’ve done nothing to stop the extremists. Why should they get credit for being a bunch of quiet scared people?

May I introduce you to Buford O’Neal Furrow?

So, he’s a terrorist too. And a racist.

And you’ve done nothing to stop the very same extremists, Gary. Voting at the elementary school down the block doesn’t cut it. Why should you get credit for being a scared loudmouth?

So, he’s a terrorist too. And a racist.

And an American. And not a Muslim. And not appearing on your TerrorismFear RADAR.

“But, 1 out of 10 terrorists aren’t Muslim! Clearly that means that you should focus more attention on them. Religionofpeace religionofpeace, yaknow?”

“But, 1 out of 10 terrorists aren’t Muslim! Clearly that means that you should focus more attention on them. Religionofpeace religionofpeace, yaknow?�

But, 1 out of 10 terrorists aren’t thousands of miles away! Clearly that means that you should focus zero attention on them. Deathcult deathcult, yaknow?

Yeah, those people exist. But they’ve done nothing to stop the extremists. Why should they get credit for being a bunch of quiet scared people?

Well, but, Gary . . . if you’re right in calling their leaders fascists, then their system doesn’t allow them much voice, does it? That’s why we have to try harder to listen to them — they are either silenced or drowned out by the vitriol of their leaders. It’s rather similar to the way in which the millions of Americans who disagree with the current administration’s disastrous policies have had very little success in stopping its extremism. That doesn’t mean we stop trying, and it doesn’t mean we decide that their powerlessness equals complicity.

The fact is that the left blames America first.

Wrong. The left, or at least my corner of it, blames the current political leadership of America, along with the leadership of other entities that advocate violence as the first means of international relations. Not America. There’s a difference.

*dissolves into fits of giggles*

Gary’s link goes to ‘Rock the Casbah.’

Too funny.

Wow, Joe is so young in that video 🙁

I miss him.

For those of us keeping track of the body count:

Attacks by Islamist terrorists: At least 200 dead in Mumbai (7/11/06), 40 dead in Baghdad (7/9/06), 57 dead in Karichi (4/11/06), Over 100 dead in Samarra (2/22/06), At least 60 dead in Amman (11/9/05), At least 61 dead in Delhi (10/29/05), 88 dead in Sharm el-Sheikh (7/23/05), 5 dead in Netanya (7/12/05), 56 dead in London (7/7/05), 344 dead in Beslan (9/3/04), 191 dead in Madrid (3/11/05), 202 dead in Bali (10/12/02), 10 dead in the Baltimore-DC Area (10/2/02 to 10/24/02), 2986 dead on 9/11 (9/11/01), 225 dead in Tanzania and Kenya (8/7/98), 299 dead in Beirut (10/23/82)

Attacks by American terrorists: 168 in Oklahoma City (4/19/95)

In reaction, GoatBoy declared “Clearly terrorism is evenly committed by Muslims and Christians alike”

“So you support the Islamist propaganda that has brainwashed the people in those countries?

The fact is that the left blames America first.”

Had to smile..you equate recognizing the existance of something to supporting it. We have invaded and destabilized Iraq and continue to rattle sabres at Iran. The populace in that region, when advised of what we openly do, has every right to openly despise us. You obviously expect them to think like you do and to do otherwise is to be brainwashed.

You and your wingnut buddies love having someone to hate, yet resent that others choose to hate us. Patently unfair view, Gary, inconsistent and unfair. Certainly you may view your hatred as righteous, but do not denigrate their hatred by blaming propaganda.

Let’s get one thing straight. (I know, hopeless, gang). The left in general (there are a few loonies) does not blame America for 9/11 (except in your fantasies). The left does believe the US has created a mess in Iraq and is responsible. I certainly do not blame 8 year old girls for that mess. Does Al Queda hate us. Yes. Do they have a reason? Yes. Is something in our behavior responsible for that hatred? Yes. Is their hatred rational? You and I probably agree it is not.

So they have reason to hate us (in their twisted minds). You choose to say that because they have reason, and I recognize that fact, that I perforce blame America for it. Not true. I blame their irrational thought.

Much like yours..

‘In reaction, GoatBoy declared “Clearly terrorism is evenly committed by Muslims and Christians alikeâ€?’

Who taught you how to use quotation marks? GoatBoy declared nothing. GoatBoy insinuated that you are more terrified by the brown people using terrorist tactics that are thousands of miles away than you are of the pale people using terrorist tactics that are much much closer to home.

(You claim McVeigh and Nichols as Christians without batting an eye. Telling.)

And leaves off the Olympic Park bomber, and the abortion clinic bombings, and the abortion doctor shootings . . .

I didn’t claim Nichols and McVeigh as Christians. But I figured someone like you would claim that.

Info on McVeigh does mention that he was raised Catholic and visited by priests in prison.

When it comes to the forces which are more likely to kill thousands of Americans, Islamist terrorists are much more likely to want to do that than anybody else.

Pretty weird categorization, Gary. “Islamist” and “American” are your two options for terrorist-identification? Well, that’s convenient, I guess, if not remotely logical. But even so, you have a problem. What to do with John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. sniper? Well, clearly to you he fits in category #1 because that makes your numbers look better, but he’s, y’know, an American.

Not to mention that your body count leaves out a great number of deaths since your chosen year of 1982 that are directly attributable to terrorism (“The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons”).

But that’s rather beside the point. Really. What good does it do you, or anyone, to make lists of dead bodies and sort them into groups? All of this “they started it!” “they’re worse than we are!” eye-for-an-eye crap leads nowhere good. Never has.

And the people in those countries have been brainwashed to hate Bush and hate America.

I think they can hate Bush without the propaganda … he makes it so easy! Invading sovereign nations, refusing to stop massacres of civilians … c’mon – you can do it if you try!

[…] Courtesy of NobodySpecial in comments, I’m treated to Mark Steyn’s latest bit of fascist tosspottery. It’s stunning; in the same vein as last offering, but his general thesis is expanded. Last time he urged our government to act more like the Iranians’. Now he’s urging our society and culture to be more like that of militant Islam. […]

And leaves off the Olympic Park bomber, and the abortion clinic bombings, and the abortion doctor shootings

2 person died in the Olympic park bombings. The National Abortion Federation says that the death toll from Bombings and Shootings is 7.

Here’s a count of fatalities for you all from the lists presented by me (and adding 9 to the American list)

Deaths from Islamist terrorists: 4924
Deaths from American terrorists: 177

The fact is, you are more terrified by the brown people using terrorist tactics that are thousands of miles away than you are by the pale people using terrorist tactics that are much much closer to home.

What to do with John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. sniper? Well, clearly to you he fits in category #1 because that makes your numbers look better, but he’s, y’know, an American.

J.A. Muhammed does fit into category #1 due to his ties with Islamic terror.

But maybe he was just a “victim” of Sudden Jihad Syndrome.

Anyways, the count is 4924-177, why would I just add the Beltway Sniper to boost the “Islamist” side?

Gary, I think it would be valuable if you put forward your working definition of “Terrorism” at this point. It seems to be all over the map. You know, it doesn’t mean “Demonizing label for any people in the world I don’t like and wish my government would go kill”. Honest.

Question time. How is the Israeli bombing civilians in Lebanon NOT terrorism? I mean, forget how the bombs got there. If they didn’t have an air force and used car bombs and suicide bombers, with the same outcome, would THAT be terrorism? How about the Russian destruction of Grozny by their military? How was that NOT terrorism. How about the vaunted American “Thunder Run” into Baghdad. How was THAT not terrorism? Is it your position that the exact same act by a non-state actor is “terrorism” and by a state military force is “defense”? An artillery shell or an aerial bomb is good clean fightin’, but a car bomb is terrorism? How’s that work, exactly?

Even today, you have much more to fear from Russian ICBMs than Muslim extremists. You really should admit it. You just want to kill them. Any excuse will do. WMD, Democracy, Counter Terror ops, you’ll get behind any reason to kill them, men, women, children and all. I know I’ve asked you this before, but you’ve never answered. Have you ever seen dead civilians? Moms blown in half and yet still holding their shrapnel-riddled children as they both bleed out? You ever SMELL it? Ever had to go into a villiage and police it up? Trust me son, you don’t really want to dispense death on an industrial scale. You’re just scared. It will be ok…

mikey

gary has never once countered anything i have ever said. gary, we’ve been spreading propaganda there for 70 years. turnabout is fair play. Little girls spewing hatred is not something the muslims have a monopoly on.

And I never EVER blame America first… i always look for others first… but sometimes the blame IS here at home. Don;t hate me because I’m beautiful, hate me because i’m correct.

And you just keep waving the flag real hard. In so doing, you are sitting there, NOT DOING ANYTHING, and that is the very definition of a civillian.

you being so scared lets the terrorists drive.

Your reaction is their motivation

Your invective is their reward

your fear is their honey, and it is dripping off you by the bucketfull.

You are the terrorists prize. Living proof that their efforts are not in vain, that we can become more like them, less free, more totalitarian, if they just keep blowing us up.

Sorry Gary. Your policy agenda plays into their hands.

Gary, I think it would be valuable if you put forward your working definition of “Terrorism�

Intentionally killing innocent people in order to advance your cause.

How is the Israeli bombing civilians in Lebanon NOT terrorism?

Because Israel is targetting Hezbollah terrorists, and conducting attacks which are very precision based. Meanwhile, Hezbollah is trying to hide behind civilians in order to maximize the number of dead civilians in Lebanon.

Even today, you have much more to fear from Russian ICBMs than Muslim extremists.

Mikey, the Russians aren’t planning to shoot ICBMs at us. Muslim Extremists want to turn America into a dictatorship run by Sharia.

(American) Deaths from Islamist terrorists: 4924
(American) Deaths from American terrorists: 177

that is assymetric logic, not asymmetric warfare.

“Because Israel is targetting Hezbollah terrorists, and conducting attacks which are very precision based. ”

Case in point. They knew EXACTLY where those UN observers were.

“Muslim Extremists want to turn America into a dictatorship run by Sharia.”

And they stand not one chance in hell. But the Bill of Rights is having holes drilled through it right under your nose. By Americans. And you reserve your fear and hatred for brown people who use terrorist tactics and are thousands of miles away.

I’m not saying you’re a pussy. I’m just- Wait. I am saying you’re a pussy.

mdhatter, i’m not scared at all. But your idea to “counter” terrorism is to ignore it. Your side is more motivated to make the minimum wage $10 an hour than to defeat terrorism. Your side would have rather seen the defeat of Bush than the defeat of Saddam Hussein.

“J.A. Muhammed does fit into category #1 due to his ties with Islamic terror.”

Guess what other category he fits into? The same one as Timothy McVeigh, a former member of our armed forces. (sorry mikey)

Gary’s definition of terrorism is awfully America-centrist. Gary seems to think its only terrorism if it’s against the US and its allies.

Gary, you’ve missed quite a few terrorist. What of the Tamil Tigers, the Shining Path, the IRA.

And if you want to talk about people committing senseless violence against civilians, you can count in plenty of folks who have the approval of ruling authorities, too. What of the death squads in Central America in the ’80’s, the cocaine cartel in Colombia, what of East Timor? What a Burma? Cambodia in Pol Pot years?

Then there is the unspeakable killing committed where no authorities rule at all. What of the civil wars and massacres in the Congo, in Rwanda, in Sierra Leone?

Gary’s vision is very very limited. I think Mikey is right, Gary is motivated by fear. He’s a cowering mouse.

“But your idea to “counterâ€? terrorism is to ignore it.”

Only in the same way that police ignore murder investigations.

“Your side is more motivated to make the minimum wage $10 an hour than to defeat terrorism.”

How do we know when we’ve “defeated terrorism?” What will that look like? Who do we go to war against next time some redneck shoots up a Luby’s?

“Your side would have rather seen the defeat of Bush than the defeat of Saddam Hussein.”

Any damage Bush might be doing is taking place here. Where the Americans are. Not thousands of miles away. You can’t have it both ways; the citizenship are culpable for overthrowing their own crackpot regimes and it’s our task to do it for them.

“Muslim Extremists want to turn America into a dictatorship run by Sharia.”

so, the USA blowing up the next door neighbors of these extremists makes those neighbors:

A) love the USA
B) hate the USA
C) respect the USA

whereas the USA offering limited aid to the neighbors and preventing the Extremists from using any sort of force multiplier (airpower, etc…) makes those neighbors:

A) love the USA
B) hate the USA
C) respect the USA

Your trouble is that you cannot believe that any muslim can be rational, because YOU cannot be rational.

I want A and C. You want C, but only if no-one believes B.

On some level, hating America is like hating the Yankees. Not worth translating into action…. unless someone just blew up your neighbors.

I don;t think terrorism should be ignored.

I just don’t think it’s a good policy anchor for a respectable nation.

“Because Israel is targetting Hezbollah terrorists, and conducting attacks which are very precision based”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1822978,00.html

Right.

“Whatever the Israelis’ intended target, the bomb fell on a small water canal next to the Qasmia refugee camp, home to about 500 Palestinians. Its victims were 11 children taking an afternoon swim in the canal….The first blast left a crater nearly four metres deep, burying many of the swimmers deep under the orange earth. Seven of the children were injured, three critically. Three others have not been found.”

No, darling Gary, we would have rather seen the ports secured, working emergency management especially first-responders, non-idiotic pork-ridden DHS spending, basically not continuing to get failing grades on most of the action items of the 9/11 committee. I’d hope “your” side wanted the same, but actions speak louder than words, cupcake.

Oh, and there’s some Jose dude trying to horn in on your action here, I hope you don’t take that lying down.

gary has never once countered anything i have ever said

Well, no. He doesn’t counter any of the arguments we’ve presented. He’s of the school of argument favored by those who act out of fear and prejudice rather than reason. It goes something like this: maybe if I say it often enough, people will believe it’s true.

Sadly, this method of persuasion often works.

But it’s not working here, so Gary goes to the next step: OK, they got me on that one so I’ll assert a claim that’s neither supportable nor refutable, something like When it comes to the forces which are more likely to kill thousands of Americans, Islamist terrorists are much more likely to want to do that than anybody else.

Those weasel words about who’s “more likely” to “want” something are just nonsense. There’s no way to back them up with any sort of real evidence, which makes the selective use of anecdotal support seem appropriate.

Gary’s going to keep equating those who meet his definition of terrorist with anyone who shares their religion, ethnic background or country of origin (unless any of those demographic features works against his argument, in which case he’ll declare it irrelevant). He’ll continue as well to shift his own private definition of key terms like “terrorist” so that it will always fit those he’s afraid of and never fit those he fervently hopes will protect him.

Clearly, being secure in the knowledge that he is right to hold his fears is more important to him than figuring out what to do about putting a stop to the conditions that cause those fears in the first place.

“Your side is more motivated to make the minimum wage $10 an hour than to defeat terrorism.�

let’s say equally motivated, and move past that total irrellevance.

GARY

How many times has Iran installed a US Shah, as you saiy they would like to do.

And how about vice-versa??

Because Israel is targetting Hezbollah terrorists, and conducting attacks which are very precision based.

Israel is targeting civillians, infrastructure, Hezbollah, and political targets, in that order. Lookit, the Israelis are GOOD. These are not misses or collateral damage, these are intentional hits.

And even if suddenly the Israeli Air Force suddenly became the gang who couldn’t shoot straight, I’ll try it again. Do you have ANY idea of the blast radius of a 500 or 1000 pound aerial bomb? What that would mean in a fucking NEIGHBORHOOD???

Dood, I’ve been on the perimeter when the fast movers delivered, what the military likes to call CAS, Close Air Support. When one of these things lands half a klick away it can kill you, and it definately fucks up your day. Tell me again how, at 600 miles per hour, 12,000 feet over a densly populated neighborhood, the israeli bombing is, what was the word? Oh yeah, surgical. Of COURSE it is…

*Snicker*

mikey

Gary…

The fact is that the left blames America first.

The Islamic-Fascist terrorists blame America first.

Let’s assume for the moment that your premises here are correct. Your syllogism is still flawed. Can you spot the problem? Here’s a simplified example:

Premise 1. Joe likes apples.

Premise 2. Mary likes apples.

Conclusion 3. Joe likes Mary.

See it now? Even leaving aside that in your syllogism, “Joe” doesn’t “like apples,” surely even a Republican Talking Point Robot such as yourself can see the inanity of that conclusion based on those premises.

Now, could you please explain which part of your ass you pulled your terrorism numbers from? According to the National Counterterrorism Center statistics for 2005, Islamic extremists accounted for 4,090 terrorism deaths in that year alone. Of course, other groups accounted for more than 10,000 other fatal terrorist attacks (including that great killer, “Unknown”). Interestingly, there were 8,299 fatalities in Iraq — more than the total ascribed to Islamic extremists — which I guess means the NCTC hates America or something.

And of course, we U.S. citizens need to be terrified of the terrorists, right? Because of how many Americans were victims of these killer Islamists. Oh wait. In 2005, according the U.S. State Department, of the more than 14,500 deaths from terrorism in 2005, 56 of them were U.S. citizens. Whereas, 10-15,000 victims were themselves Muslims. So I guess Misha and his eliminationista pals ought to be thanking them? (It may be worth noting that the NCTC definition of “terrorism” — when discussing fatalities — is focused on non-combatants; but (a) when combatants are killed in an attack on non-combatants, the combatants are added into the tally; and (b) when non-combatants are killed in an attack on combatants, e.g., a military base, the incident is not a terrorist attack and the non-combatant deaths are not tallied in the report. Once again, the NCTC clearly is in bed with the Islamofascists.)

But it’s not all about death, is it? What about all those kidnappings by Islamists? Hmm… According to the NCTC, there were nearly 35,000 kidnappings in 2005. Wow! Those Islamists must have been really busy! Oh. No, wait. 95% of those were in Nepal. And the next-largest number was in Colombia, with 499. Those Islamists are pikers when it comes to kidnapping and hostage-taking.

By the way, you should maybe check whatever list of talking points you used to source your numbers, which go back all the way to 1982. The Beirut barracks bombing was October 23, 1983, not 1982.

Wow, new software on GaryBot (TM) 2.0 with Upgraded Talking Points!

what a shame, His cognitive dissonance-o-meter must have pegged.

Allow about 15 minutes for a reboot and he’ll be right back.

Gary, I think it would be valuable if you put forward your working definition of “Terrorism�

Intentionally killing innocent people in order to advance your cause.

You mean like George Bush’s invasion of Iraq?

Clearly the only thing Americans understand is violence. When the terrorists attacked Spain, they killed enough people, and Spain got off their case. When the terrorists attacked America, they obviously didn’t kill enough people.

Obviously, they need to keep trying until they do kill enough. Maybe simultaneous nukes in DC, NY, and LA will do it. If not, Americans have lots more cities.

When you are hiding out in a cave or a cell in a US city, you’ve cut yourself off from your friends and family. You expect to die. Nothing the US does, short of killing you, has any effect. Killing your countrymen and family only serves to generate recruits to take your place when you are caught, or when you die successfully launching an attack.

This is the nature of asymetric warfare. Americans have a lot more to lose than the terrorists. Any kind of tit-for-tat is going to favor the terrorists. The terrorist can survive, even thrive, amid chaos and random destruction. America cannot.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, the Mujahadeen took credit for the collapse and threatened to do the same to America. I laughed then. Only we have the means to bring America down, by bankrupting our economy, by fueling terrorism around the world, by alienating our allies, and by driving the rest of the world to oppose us.

I laughed, because I did not believe Americans could be stupid enough to go down that route. One of the motivations behind the attack on the WTC (according to Osama himself) was to provoke the US into responding. He understood, better than me apparently, that the US was indeed that stupid. In fact, America’s stupidity has exceeded Osama’s wildest dreams.

I’m not laughing any more.

GareBear is juuuust a wee tad disingenuous in comparing figures of Americans killed by Muslims… to Americans killed by Americans. Gee, wouldn’t the more appropriate counter-figure be Muslims killed by Americans? Or does the convenient fiction that we aren’t “knowingly” targeting their civilians disqualify that figure? That’d be pretty slick, eh? Well, I, for one, don’t buy that. So what’s that figure? Well, it’s an old number, it’s from more than a year ago, and the source can hardly be called unbiased, but according to George W. Bush, we’ve killed more than 30, 000 Iraqi civilians. So that doesn’t include Afghan civilians, Lebanese civilians, or any civilians killed since he made that statement. And, personally, at the time, I felt he was lowballing outrageously. But at the very minimum, 30, 000… in a country with less than 1/10th our population. What was that reverse figure again, Gare? “4924?”
Wooo!! When it comes to terrorism, we r00l!! And I’m sorry, but when you have Apache helicopters and M-1 Abrams tanks raining death down on you, or even have to pass through a few “security” checkpoints manned with trigger-happy U.S. Troopers, if you arent terrorized by that, you’re already dead.

First I’d like to point out that Garybot has obviously not spent time with 8-year-old girls (for which we all should be thankful) because if he had, he’d know that they are all about hate: “I hate her. I hate carrots. I hate my hair. I hate those shoes. I hate you.” (You get the idea.) Teaching them to hate is not only repetitive, but would be akin to a novice teaching a black belt some cool tae kwon do kicks. All these Iranian parents are doing is directing their child’s natural propensities for pure hatred.

Second, are you, Gary, comparing total terrorist deaths worldwide to the number of deaths of Americans at the hands of American terrorists? Hmmmm. That just doesn’t seem right, now does it.

When the terrorists attacked Spain, they killed enough people, and Spain got off their case.

Yeah, that explains why the Terrorists want to spread Islam from Spain to Iraq. Clearly they’re done with Spain.

“Clearly they’re done with Spain.”

So Spain today is what “the terrorists winning” would look like? If that’s what you’re terrified of then you’re an even bigger pussy than I’d ever thought possible.

Wait, when did Spain become an Islamic dictatorship and accede to sharia law? Gary, are you holding out on us?

no no, Spian is the islamic dictatorship. I think it’s near Kokomo.

“Terrorists want to spread Islam from Spain to Iraq.”

Wha? Because there’s lots of Islam in Spain and not enough in Iraq? They’re importing Islam from Spain to Iraq? Spain is an Islamist state? Who knew?

That’s the one I love the best: that they want to turn America into an Islamic dictatorship ruled by Shari’a.
Because, after we’ve been softened up by some more terrorist attacks, the Islamofascist Expeditionary force will board their thousands of troopships and their thousands of planes and stage their invasion of America. They’ll pour their tanks and personnel carriers into the major American ports and, with breathtaking efficiency, overwhelm America’s resistance and conquer us with their technological superiority and greater will zur macht.
Just because they want to do it doesn’t mean they can.
The wingnut scenario is that of Red Dawn, except with the enemy arriving by bus.

Of course, the Islamic Republic of Spain has attempted to hide its islamofascist status from the rest of the EU, the better to lull them into a false sense of security, but they slipped up and gave an obvious sign. The legalized same-sex marriage. Gary, you’re a dork. I think Jose is st00pider than you, but you’re still a dork.

pbg, you dolt. They won’t have to send troopships to take over America. As soon as the time is optimal, the American Islamofascist-Loving Left will drop our masks and throw on our beards (men) and burqas (women) and, as the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys say, “voila!” Instant Islamic America, just add treasonous liberals!

Oh yeah. Judging from the opinions expressed and lifestyles described on this and other liberal blogs, it’s quite obvious to me that the typical american liberal would be MUCH happier if his/her leadership was islamic and the law of the land based on shari’a. I mean, the viewpoints of the taliban mullahs and, say, michael moore, or even me, are virtually identical, aren’t they?

mikey

Ayatollah mikey. Hee hee.