This is exactly the thought process most couples go through after a bottle or two of wine and some surreptitious groping in the restaurant.

I’ve heard of guys going pretty far to convince the girlfriend to end the pregnancy, but writing an entire philosophical treatise? You go, David Benatar!

I saw what you did there, DA.

I dunno. I think my parents were aware that to bear children was to impose suffering, and my dad at least thought it would be fun to do so. To each his own.

We are young! Heartache to heartache, we stand!

Hey, on the plus side, when animals bear young in the wild, a lot of them get killed and eaten by predators or rivals, and at least today that’s not quite as common.

Few of us would think it right to inflict severe suffering on an innocent child, even if that were the only way in which we could bring many other children into the world.

The Pope called. Said this argument is helpful on many levels.

How do you get a whole book out of that?

I’m not disagreeing with the thought. My point is that you either find it pretty inarguably true, or no argument will ever make you see its point. Life, maybe, will make you see its point, but no book ever could.

Plus, the Pope needs children as part of the process for producing Purity Bricks, without which the Church can’t function.

if our species continues to reproduce, we can be sure that some future children will suffer severely. Hence continued reproduction will harm some children severely, and benefit none.

This was exactly what I was telling myself when I was accosted by adorable toddlers and babies who were making me cry from their cuteness. Being a cynical doomsayer of reproductive age with a strong maternal instinct kind of sucks.

Life, maybe, will make you see its point, but no book ever could.

Life. Don’t talk to me about life.

Thinking along lines like Benatar has did actually influence my decision not to be a parent.

Didn’t occur to me to write a book on the theme, though.

Another big hunk of it was that my family has a ton of apparently hereditary depression, alcoholism, and other unpleasant stuff, which might have affected the thinking a bit.

Another big hunk of it was that my family has a ton of apparently hereditary depression, alcoholism, and other unpleasant stuff, which might have affected the thinking a bit.

Uh, yeah, me too. I figure I can adopt if I want, so at least my child’s genetic abnormalities won’t be my fault.

Pfft, old philosophy is old.

Silenus says: “That the best thing for a man is not to be born, and if already born, to die as soon as possible.”

And he should know, all he did was get drunk and hang out with goatmen with erect penes all day. Also maenads.

Always. Trust. The. Shorter.™

Hamadahamadahamada…WHAT?

What a fucking idiot Singer is! You don’t bring children into the world thinking “Hm. I can provide this child a good life,” YOU FUCKING MORON!

Children are the ultimate expression of the self-centered id, they are the greediest thing a human being can do in his lifetime! You don’t have children for the child’s sake, you asshole, you have children FOR YOUR OWN SELF-IMAGE!

How in the hell are people actually going to predict what the world will be like in 20 years when they can’t even predict with great accuracy what they’ll have for dinner?

Singer, you’re a fucking moron. Grow up, read a little philosophy and stop thinking for other people.

Win!

But of course, you had a headstart.

Let me continue on the Little Miss Mary Sunshine theme here and agree with Xecky. I actually wanted to have a child, but thanks to being single and also suffering from pretty major bouts of depression decided not to…it was hard enough to get myself through those periods and I just didn’t see how I could manage it if I was raising a child alone. Now, lo and behold, the closer I get to “the change” the less frequent and severe the depressions have become – I can go whole years without even a minor case of the blues. But…now that I’m older, I also look around and realize what a full-blown horror show this place is gonna be within the next 50 – 75 years. Even more overpopulated than now and trying to eke out an existence on a planet we’ve killed. As the climate changes and sea levels rise, the dispossessed are not going to stay where they are – they’re going to swamp the lifeboats. And even now we’re only one devastating plant disease away from mass starvation – there’s so little genetic diversity in our staple crops that one pathogen could wipe out virtually the entire corn, soybean, rice, or wheat crop in any given year.

I look to the future and see no flying cars; only greater horrors for the human race. I’m really glad I don’t have a child who will live to see it and perhaps die as a result of it.

Children are the ultimate expression of the self-centered id, they are the greediest thing a human being can do in his lifetime! You don’t have children for the child’s sake, you asshole, you have children FOR YOUR OWN SELF-IMAGE!

You have just explained the existence of many of my co-worker’s children. I am not sure if I should thank you or not.

I’m really glad I don’t have a child who will live to see it and perhaps die as a result of it.

Me, too. But ZOMG babies are so cute!

That’s some funny shit Michael G.

You have just explained the existence of many of my co-worker’s children.

I’m surprised it’s not all of them.

I’m serious. Children are the ultimate ego-trip. They are an attempt to wrest immortality out of a mortal world.

I also look around and realize what a full-blown horror show this place is gonna be within the next 50 – 75 years.

And yet, humanity has suffered and survived worse. Much, much worse.

It’s not as black as you think it is.

I’m surprised it’s not all of them.
The rest can be explained by contraceptive failure.

I don’t understand; what does that have to do with boobs?

The rest can be explained by contraceptive failure.

LOL!

It’s funny how a simple inbred genetic imperative can become a bizarre philosophic exercise in the hands of an amateur, in the face of a comment like that.

And yet, humanity has suffered and survived worse. Much, much worse.

It’s not as black as you think it is.

Sure, but individual people haven’t. And the people who have and are going to suffer the most won’t really be helped by bringing another (adorable, smart, empathetic, hyper-allergic) fossil fuel consumer into the world.

Sure, but individual people haven’t. And the people who have and are going to suffer the most won’t really be helped by bringing another (adorable, smart, empathetic, hyper-allergic) fossil fuel consumer into the world.

yea, but here’s the thing: the folks who ARE going to suffer the most from whatever tragedy eventually does strike us are precisely the ones who aren’t thinking “HM, can I guarantee my child a happy life?”

They’re the ones already dying from famine or thirst or disease, and they’ll keep breeding because they need help gathering food and water for the familty and the village.

Meanwhile, the self-centered folks who actually HAVE life in abundance are the ones wringing their hands over it.

And, if they just stopped and realized they WILL have happy kids with reasonably happy lives who might actually be raised to HELP the people who will be dead….maybe they’d stop being so paranoid.

I’m with Jennifer on this; as far as I’m concerned, it’s not even a matter of whether or not the future will be a Crapsack World, it’s about the extent and particular variety. I’m taking some small comfort in the regular generation of fun new toys from Apple while I can, plus of course the fact that we’re not overrun by mutant man-eating cockroaches… yet.

Hell is for children. QED.

It is impossible to achieve the aim without suffering.

I’m taking some small comfort in the regular generation of fun new toys from Apple while I can

GDB,

Go read my blog today. 🙂

they WILL have happy kids with reasonably happy lives who might actually be raised to HELP the people who will be dead….

Or may be 26-year-old jobless Aspies who still live with their mother and meet their girlfriends on Furcadia…

“may be”? I meant “maybe,” of course. More global warming-inducing coffee, pls!

Wait. Fuck. It should be “may be.” I give up.

We belong?

Or may be 26-year-old jobless Aspies who still live with their mother and meet their girlfriends on Furcadia…

GODDAMIT MOM! STOP FUCKING BLOGGING AND WASH MY SKUNK SUIT YOU KNOW I HAVE A DATE TONIGHT AND I HAVEN’T EVEN YIFFED IN LIKE 3 YEARS AND I WISH I HAD NEVER BEEN BORN!

but thanks to…suffering from pretty major bouts of depression decided not to…it was hard enough to get myself through those periods and I just didn’t see how I could manage it if I was raising a child….

Seconded (except I’m married), and I’d also like to third the comments about alcoholism, depression, severe mental illness, and the like. There are some gigantic timebombs waiting around in my genome, and perhaps in my own mind, and I don’t think it’s right to bring a child into the world when I reasonably doubt my ability to take care of it properly.

And yet…I still sort of want kids, if only because I’m terrified of being old and alone. I’ve worked in enough hospitals to know what that’s like.

But…now that I’m older, I also look around and realize what a full-blown horror show this place is gonna be within the next 50 – 75 years.

Once upon a time I was inclined to think that way, and then I had a conversation with my grandfather (WWII vet), who pointed out that when he was between, say, 10 and 50, things looked about as bad. The Nazis (or, later, the Soviets) were going to take over the world and destroy freedom. We were going to have a nuclear war and blow ourselves to pieces (this was the era when schoolkids did fallout drills by hiding under their desks). Even if that didn’t happen, racial tensions in the US were going to catapult us into a civil war. Oh, and the economy was in the crapper from time to time.

I’m sure I’m forgetting some other harbingers of doom here and there, but that was the general idea. Things ALWAYS look bad. It’s best to bet on civilization surviving year after year. After all, you can be right time and time again, but you can only be wrong once.

Did someone mention boobs?

SFW

Did someone mention boobs?

Didn’t think I could care less about a pair of tits than Sarah Palin’s, but I was wrong.

There are some gigantic timebombs waiting around in my genome, and perhaps in my own mind, and I don’t think it’s right to bring a child into the world when I reasonably doubt my ability to take care of it properly

Doesn’t seem to have affected you, and yet you carry those genes.

Having a child is a huge step. I know that. I just think a lot of what I’m reading here not fear but lack of self-confidence.

Or may be 26-year-old jobless Aspies who still live with their mother and meet their girlfriends on Furcadia…

Yea. Could be. But they won’t be Darfurians and who knows? Maybe their slacking will inspire someone else to do something out of disgust.

GODDAMIT MOM! STOP FUCKING BLOGGING AND WASH MY SKUNK SUIT YOU KNOW I HAVE A DATE TONIGHT AND I HAVEN’T EVEN YIFFED IN LIKE 3 YEARS AND I WISH I HAD NEVER BEEN BORN!

I will as soon as you stop leaving crusty socks all over the place and exploded pizza bites in the microwave.

(Also, yuck).

Yea. Could be. But they won’t be Darfurians and who knows? Maybe their slacking will inspire someone else to do something out of disgust.

Sure, but I don’t want to have to fucking deal with it.

It’s actually nice to see a bit of hand-wringing over the white ppls giving birth, too – I’d about given up in the face of all the Rethug “OMG! The Brown pplz are multiplying! Breed, white Christians, breed!”.

I stepped out of the population race years ago, but I still think babies are cute.

Jeez, I have male pattern baldness and myopia, and that’s enough for me not to want kids. It’s the myopia that really bothers me, I grew up wanting to be a pilot in the air force. But on the up side, I’m not dropping bombs on Afghanistan right now, I mean fighting terror.

77south – I think you might still be able to remote-control drones with myopia, though …

actor212: Well, getting off the grid is still an option for some people, at least. Some of us are dependent on things like modern medicine, without which our lives would be considerably shorter and much more miserable, especially toward the end.

77south – I think you might still be able to remote-control drones with myopia, though …
So I get all of the moral drawbacks without even having to get in a plane and fly? Where do I sign?
😛

I’m not disagreeing with the thought. My point is that you either find it pretty inarguably true, or no argument will ever make you see its point.

I suspect I fall into the latter camp, at least if we’re talking about this:

To bring into existence someone who will suffer is…to harm that person, but to bring into existence someone who will have a good life is not to benefit him or her.

How can one believe the former statement but not the latter? How can the latter statement be true? How can a good life not be a benefit, at least compared to nonexistence? (And if you believe that a bad life is harmful relative to nonexistence *and* that a good life isn’t a benefit, why bother getting up in the morning? Shouldn’t you, well, choose nonexistence?)

This sort of thing lends itself to endless degrees of logic-chopping. The argument seems to be that, on balance, nonexistence is better than existence. If so, do I deserve credit for every day, every minute, every second in which I fail to father a child and bring one of those nonexistent people into existence? Is there some massive group of hypothetical people, nonexistent people, who hypothetically cheer me on every time I don’t impregnate somebody? Do they go on the “good” side of my karma sheet?

77south – I think you might still be able to remote-control drones with myopia, though …

I was asked to find Osama using remote viewing.

Some of us are dependent on things like modern medicine, without which our lives would be considerably shorter and much more miserable, especially toward the end.

I’m totally learning how to synthesize albuterol and buproprion at home in order to prepare for the apocalypse.

GDB,

That was a logical extension of my thoughts, to be sure, but not where I was headed with that.

I’m just tired of society, and frustrated that at the great banquet that is life, I could be eating caviar instead of having spaghetti with ketchup shoveled at me.

I could be eating caviar instead of having spaghetti with ketchup shoveled at me.

Note to self: live a little and splurge on Prego.

This is exactly the kind of sophistic bullshit that gives intellectuals a bad name.

I would expect this from a pasty reed-thin clove-smoking trustafarian with a father complex. But not someone who has actually, seriously grown up and even achieved some sort of book contract.

The notion that this tool got a book contract is actually life-affirming – the bar really is quite low.

Shorter David Benatar:
I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!!! WAAAHHH!!!

I would expect this from a pasty reed-thin clove-smoking trustafarian with a father complex. But not someone who has actually, seriously grown up and even achieved some sort of book contract.

Presumably he got the contract because he could sell the book to pasty reed-thin clove-smoking trustafarians. There are certainly enough of them out there to sell a decent number of copies at indie hipster bookstores and the like.

Seriously, though. I’m *IN* academia, and when I read stuff like this, I invariably want to tell the author to shut the fuck up and go wander around in the real world for a while.

Hey DA: remind me again what “yif” means. No, wait, don’t remind me. Okay, do. No, don’t! AAUUGH!

I leave it in your hands, or whatever appendage is involved.

Don’t forget to use real, freshly-grated parmesan instead of the shit in the green can. Start a window box for herbs.

Don’t forget to use real, freshly-grated parmesan instead of the shit in the green can. Start a window box for herbs.

Seconded. A small handful of real basil leaves, along with some sprigs of oregano or thyme, somehow have a really good antidepressant effect.

(Fuck caviar anyway. Typical baby-eating leftist fare.)

I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!!! WAAAHHH!!!

Heh. But really, I agree that the whole “don’t bring children into the world because they’ll suffer” thing is pretty ridiculous, because humans have been suffering for quite a while and it’s doubtful that will change in the future. I mean, it makes sense on an individual level (ie–my genes suck!), but I don’t think it’s an argument against reproduction in general.

All that’s needed for evil to triumph is for good people not to pass on their genes. Political inclination is largely genetic. Liberal parents usually have liberal kids, and conservative parents usually have conservative kids. People usually don’t ever change their fundamental political stance — call it the innate resistance to authority, compassion level, curiosity, whatever — except occasionally to swing from one pole of extremism to another.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I knew I was a DFH at a very young age. I remember wanting to punch Ronald Reagan in the face as early as first or second grade. It wasn’t a choice. It was something I was born with. Why would anyone knowingly *choose* to be a Democrat? No, it’s not a choice.

I think it’s silly to believe Western Civilization has anything to fear from the brown people out-breeding us. (Brown people, given the chance, love megamalls and fast food and sappy movies more than anyone.) But what about the dumb, stupid people? The side that doesn’t believe in birth control?

I don’t think it’s an argument against reproduction in general.

Clearly you have never seen me in action before.

Children are the best thing that can happen to a person. I don’t understand how people can’t know that but… huh, whatever.

The notion that this tool got a book contract is actually life-affirming – the bar really is quite low.

Good one.

(Fuck caviar anyway. Typical baby-eating leftist fare.)

Y’know, it was a metaphorical shovelfull of spaghetti and ketchup….

Children are the best thing that can happen to a person. I don’t understand how people can’t know that but… huh, whatever.

Um, really? Are you joking?

In case you aren’t:

If people want kids, that’s fine with me. If they have had fulfilling and wonderful lives because they’ve had children, that’s great. But some people regret they had children. Some people never really wanted them and thought that was what they were supposed to do. There are plenty of children out there who certainly don’t feel like their parents think they’re the best thing in life. Not trying to be a dick, but seriously: don’t make judgments about other people’s lives based on your own experiences.

Is there some massive group of hypothetical people, nonexistent people, who hypothetically cheer me on every time I don’t impregnate somebody?

Not speaking of you but there are a good number of people whom I am glad never managed to and quite a few more whom I am sorry somehow managed the feat.

Plus, I mean, they totally mess up your boobs.

But some people regret they had children.

STOP MAKING FUN OF TRIGG!

Plus, I mean, they totally mess up your boobs.

Uh uh. There’s nothing like a pair of nipples already broken in. Take it from one who knows.

But…now that I’m older, I also look around and realize what a full-blown horror show this place is gonna be within the next 50 – 75 years.

I’ve often felt that way. I still do. But someone will have to survive, and do you want humanity to be represented by the descendents of the “Quiverfull” movement when the Antarans finally arrive?

We need smart kids raised by smart parents. So get to breeding, T&U! And please post the videos…

So get to breeding, T&U! And please post the videos…

Look, this editing bay doesn’t pay for itself! I’m working as fast as I can!

Um, really? Are you joking?

Ah, no T&U, I’m not.

I’ve had a pretty crappy and miserable life and never have achieved much but by far and away my children were a bright shining moment in my life. I don’t regret it for a second.

Not trying to be a dick, but seriously: don’t make judgments about other people’s lives based on your own experiences.

I think I can. I think that is what this here ‘thinking’ is supposed to do, draw general conclusions from particular experience. I can discuss this if you like but… it wouldn’t be funny

I read SN! all the time, I comment very irregularly cause I guess I’m that funny in text but I don’t want to get into a heated exchange. But… I can talk about it if you are seriously that confused.

Life is to be preferred over not living. Children are not an egoistic expression of the ID, they are the most selfless thing you can do. Why is this? Because children demand that you set aside your own narrow narcissism and step up and be more than you were. That some cannot do that doesn’t imply that that is a general good.

Substance was right. “The goal cannot be achieved without suffering.” Life is suffering, therefore life is good.

Your move kiddo.

Is there some massive group of hypothetical people, nonexistent people, who hypothetically cheer me on every time I don’t impregnate somebody?

yes, but the pro-lifers are already using them for their 50 million baby abortocalypse advertising.

Children are the best thing that can happen to a person.

You bet! Especially if you have them about 9-10 months before Thanksgiving or… wait, we’re still talking about food, right?

Uh uh. There’s nothing like a pair of nipples already broken in. Take it from one who knows.

Any response I have to this is terribly inappropriate, even for me.

We need smart kids raised by smart parents. So get to breeding, T&U!

You are at least the third person who has told me that I need to have children in the last two days. It’s easy for y’all to say, because you wouldn’t have to deal with my whiny, cranky self. And I would be oh, so whiny and cranky.

I should preview my text more but in my defense I’m still on my first cup of coffee.

Why is this? Because children demand that you set aside your own narrow narcissism and step up and be more than you were.

The rearing of a child demands some sacrifice on the part of the parent.

The urge to create a child is wholly narcissistic.

The rearing of a child demands some sacrifice on the part of the parent.

The urge to create a child is wholly narcissistic.

Let me expound on this a moment.

The ultimate narcissism is the rearing of a child, because how do we raise our children?

To. Be. Just. Like. Us.

Is there anything more narcissistic than that?

If you raise your child to be just like you then you have failed to properly raise your child.

The urge to create a child is wholly narcissistic.

I think the urge to reproduce is one of those few genetically determined behaviors we have. How can a decision which can potentially lead to the death of the mother and the impoverishment of the father be narcissistic?

If you raise your child to be just like you then you have failed to properly raise your child.

Are you suggesting you should offer no moral guidance or the benefit of your life’s experience to your child?

How do you raise one, then, and why would you?

We need smart kids raised by smart parents. So get to breeding, T&U! And please post the videos…

I get this argument every month or so from my in-laws. It’s the least creepy of their arguments, to be honest; it’s much creepier when they say that the world needs more fair-skinned blue-eyed babies.

Doesn’t seem to have affected you, and yet you carry those genes.

I appreciate the sentiment, but it has. It’s hard to talk about it in detail without sounding narcissistic, but…well, just going on risk factors alone, the odds of me having a serious mental problem are not trivial. Maybe if I had kids I’d just suck it up and do what needed to be done. Then again, maybe not.

I just think a lot of what I’m reading here not fear but lack of self-confidence.

That’s probably somewhat true in my case. I find it hard to be self-confident about something as monumental as this seems to be.

I think the urge to reproduce is one of those few genetically determined behaviors we have. How can a decision which can potentially lead to the death of the mother and the impoverishment of the father be narcissistic?

The entire canon of instinct is full of behaviors that individually seem to be sacrificing, but which are far from altruistic.

Again, having a baby, passing along your genes, is ultimately a stab at immortality. You are guaranteeing your existence genetically, meaning you feel you are that important.

I can talk about it if you are seriously that confused.

If you mean by what you said–I’m not confused at all. People say those sorts of things to me a lot.

Life is to be preferred over not living.

Maybe. But if my hypothetical children aren’t living, how would they know that?

children demand that you set aside your own narrow narcissism and step up and be more than you were. That some cannot do that doesn’t imply that that is a general good.

I was going to say that you’ve never met my father, but I realized you did concede that some people can’t set aside their own narcissism. (Draw whatever conclusions about my childlessness you want from that statement). The fact that reproducing might be positive overall is of little comfort to the people who are burdened by being parents or are children of people who are shitty parents.

The problem here may be that I’m being reactionary and mis-reading your initial comment, as well. I read “children are the best thing that can happen to a person” as “nothing else will make you a better/more content person than having children,” because, as I said, I get that a lot.

But if you mean that children have the possibility of being the best thing that can happen to a person, but may not necessarily be, and that other things may take up that space, then I can support that. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who have changed for the better after having children. But it’s not universal.

The ultimate narcissism is the rearing of a child, because how do we raise our children?

To. Be. Just. Like. Us.

and

If you raise your child to be just like you then you have failed to properly raise your child.

and

Are you suggesting you should offer no moral guidance or the benefit of your life’s experience to your child?

Er, there is a pretty big middle ground here. Namely, you can try to encourage the kid to adopt your good traits while trying to help him avoid your major fuckups. If I did have kids, I’d certainly encourage them to be as fiscally responsible as my wife and I are (and were raised to be). I’d *dis*courage them from being as antisocial as I am, because misanthropy turns out to have some pretty negative consequences in life.

(All this, of course, is pure theory; in reality my kids would end up with their own fuckups and might very well ignore my advice entirely. But I think I’d have to at least *try*.)

Trilateral Chairman said,
June 10, 2010 at 17:37

Co-sign. (Except the in-laws part. MIL probably wants more grandkids, but she didn’t ever plan on having children, either).

Namely, you can try to encourage the kid to adopt your good traits while trying to help him avoid your major fuckups

That still sort of speaks to the narcissism of raising a child. This suggests that you want that child to you be “you+”

And, really, my mental health concerns have mostly to do with the possibility of having post-partum depression. Which is why I’m still considering adoption.

Adoption is an A++ desire to have.

Post partum depression?

That’s a 5% chance (at best) and a 25% chance (at worst). Maybe you’re mistaking that for “baby blues” which most women suffer and get over quickly.

Adoption is an A++ desire to have.

I know. It’s just so freaking expensive…

I know. It’s just so freaking expensive…

Children too, depending.

My child is on one of those autism spectrum bullshit diagnosis thingies, and although she’s luckier than most, I have to cover a lot of bills that were, at time of birth, unanticipated.

Possible good news on that front.

That’s a 5% chance (at best) and a 25% chance (at worst). Maybe you’re mistaking that for “baby blues” which most women suffer and get over quickly.

No, I know the difference. I have a history of serious, chronic depression, which puts me at much higher risk. Plus, if I had a kid, I would be 30 or older, which is also a risk factor. None of my aunts or my mother had postpartum depression despite previous depressive episodes, but most of them had already had all their kids by 30.

That still sort of speaks to the narcissism of raising a child. This suggests that you want that child to you be “you+”

I suppose that’s true. There are certainly parents who want their kids to be “them-plus” by, say, having the acting career that they themselves always wanted or pursuing that medical career that they regret passing up. Those parents are generally awful, and I wouldn’t want to be like that. Nevertheless, as you suggested, you can hardly deny your kids the benefit of your experience. I guess I would hope that I could say “look, this path and that path and *that* path seem to lead to pretty good outcomes, even though I only chose the first of those.” Come to think of it, that’s how my grandfather raised my dad. Grandpa was very much a physical-labor kind of guy–worked as a mechanic and repairman, did lots of sports, etc. He ended up with a kid who wanted to sit and read encyclopedias for fun. He *could* have forced my dad to join the football team or something, and I’m sure he tried to bring him out to catch passes every now and then, but ultimately Grandpa just shrugged and bought my dad lots of books. Seemed to work.

My child is on one of those autism spectrum bullshit diagnosis thingies, and although she’s luckier than most, I have to cover a lot of bills that were, at time of birth, unanticipated.

Possible good news on that front.

That is very, very cool.

My brother wasn’t particularly expensive until he was about 10-11, but I think that if he he’d been born in the last 15 years, he would have been. Which is good, because he would’ve gotten the treatment he needed. And it might have been less expensive in the long run…

Children too, depending.

Gawd, yes. I don’t even want to THINK about how much money my dad spent on glasses for my poor myopic eyeballs. I started wearing them at age 4 or 5, and got new lenses at least once a year–sometimes twice–until I was in my late teens. And each new set of lenses couldn’t fit in the old frames, so….

Benatar is clearly a kindred soul. Whenever anyone asks how I would like to die, I always reply, “Abortion would have been nice.”

.

Honestly, I don’t want to get into a heated discussion. I enjoy reading SN! and don’t comment much but… you know… I have opinions… they are most likely not your opinions. I’m not trying to troll or flamebait but.. you know, I am who I am. I don’t wish to apologize for being who I am nor am I that willing to alter who I am or what I believe in order to conform to general opinion.

actor212
Are you suggesting you should offer no moral guidance or the benefit of your life’s experience to your child?

How do you raise one, then, and why would you?

Yes! You should do that. Why would you think that I meant anything different? You try that’s all, you just try. If you fail that’s ok. You try to give them a better life than what you had… duh… and you try not to make them reflections of yourself but to bring out in them that one singular being that is who they are. It just seems… obvious to me that is what one should do.

T&U
he fact that reproducing might be positive overall is of little comfort to the people who are burdened by being parents or are children of people who are shitty parents.

I understand it’s difficult, trust me. I had a friend, I don’t communicate with her much any more but she had a “shitty” father. She recalls when she was three her mom got pregnant and her father came to her. He told her that since mommy was unable to satisfy daddy it was now her job. She was thankful for the blood, it helped to lubricate things.

The goal of recovery is to look at your past, even a past like that, and still say yes to life. She could do that. That is the perspective that I advocate in contrast to the author’s claim of ‘Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence.’

No, he is a fool.

I read “children are the best thing that can happen to a person” as “nothing else will make you a better/more content person than having children”

Well, there are many things that will make one a better person. Most all involve suffering though. I think that children are certainly most likely among the better choices. But you see… It reads better if you don’t fill up the statement with a bunch of if’s and’s maybe’s and other conditionals.

But if you mean that children have the possibility of being the best thing that can happen to a person, but may not necessarily be, and that other things may take up that space, then I can support that. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who have changed for the better after having children. But it’s not universal.

I am skeptical that other things can really take the place of children. Other things do not place demands on you in quite the same way do they? Not even a spouse. Social institutions certainly not. Having someone who’s life depends on you and who pukes up on your bedsheets at 3am when you have to be at work by 7 and no, you can’t beat the child nor yell at the child. You have to suck it up and set your desires aside and deal with the situation.

Who else can bring that kind of joy into your life? 😉

FU wordpress, for eating my post. Now I haz a sad.

Oh great. Now I keep hearing the chorus riff from Pat Benatar’s “Hit Me With Your Best Shot” in my head – sigh. At least his last name isn’t Stapp.

I had a conversation with my grandfather (WWII vet), who pointed out that when he was between, say, 10 and 50, things looked about as bad. The Nazis (or, later, the Soviets) were going to take over the world and destroy freedom. We were going to have a nuclear war and blow ourselves to pieces (this was the era when schoolkids did fallout drills by hiding under their desks).

Which all makes a hell of a point, as long as you ignore that in Grandpa’s day A) there was still lots & lots of everything to go around, B) only a few countries had nukes & their balance of terror meant only a remote chance of them being fired off, C) there were a couple of billion fewer mouths to feed, & D) that was back when we had four normal regular seasons in every year & no archipelago of plastic in the middle of the Pacific, no vanishing glacier action, no ongoing man-made mass-extinction, & on & on & on. Entropy is a bitch. Oh, plus you have to ignore that the Nazis/Soviets didn’t really have a hope in hell of taking over the world – & that if they somehow had done so, their empire would’ve imploded within a couple of years from internal strife, inertia & corruption just like every other empire in human history. But yeah, other than that, PWNED!

Back in 1900, everyone was totally stoked as they anticipated their time-travelling, immortal grandkids having robo-butlers & flying cars to take them to bitchin’ garden-parties by the year 2000.

In 2000, the total silence on the subject of what 2100 would be like was deafening – you had a couple of futurist wankers out on the fringes tentatively speculating about space colonies, nanobots & fusion, & not much else. There was a vibe of “party down now while we still can” because deep down we all knew the score: when you screw the pooch, you gotta raise the litter.

Life is to be preferred over not living.

Self-preservation instinct – it is not a philosophy. Unless you have some very unique afterlife experience to share, you lack any solid evidence to either confirm or refute this statement – as do we all. Your opinion may be worthwhile for you personally, but without sufficient context there’s no way to know if it’s correct.

Now, if you’d said “faps are to be preferred over not fapping” …

I’m probably still a half hour behind the currentest comments so forgive me if I’m bringing up something that’s already been mentioned but:

Actor, you appear to be pretty damn sure you know what motivates every person who decides to have children. Your anthropology and psychology credentials must be quite the burden to bear. IME, people have babies for all sorts of reasons, including that they just want them — y’know, instinct. I personally think it’s terriffic that (some) people now have the option to sit down and think through the pros and cons of having children and then make as rational a decision as is possible.

I’ve seen a number of articles recently (and before, but there seem to be a lot recently) about how bringing women out of poverty and giving them a little education is the best way to reduce the population explosion in the third world. I think that’s the coolest thing EVAR. This article is an example. A rational government would take that ball and run with it…then maybe we won’t be facing 9 and a half billion people on Earth in the next 50 years and the attendant environmental damage and human misery. But noooo, the fucking evangelicals want us to be fruitful and multiply…right up until we drown in our own shit.

I’m hopeful that the rational will overtake the idiotic but that flies in the face of experience.

I’m sorry that I bothered everyone. I have a comment that got hung up in WP. Maybe someone could free that up? I have an appointment to get to.

Sorry for not being funny. In real life I am but it’s more… situational I guess. Also in real life I think I could have said that in a way that was humorous and softened any bite it has but… I guess not so much in text.

I’m not sorry that my opinions are not like everyone else’s opinions.

Sorry for not being funny. In real life I am but it’s more… situational I guess. Also in real life I think I could have said that in a way that was humorous and softened any bite it has but… I guess not so much in text.

I’m not sorry that my opinions are not like everyone else’s opinions.

Ain’t no thang. I’m not always this gut-bustingly hilarious, either.

I don’t care if your opinions aren’t like mine. I just get prickly when I feel like someone is trying to tell me how to feel or what to think. If that isn’t what you were doing, then I apologize.

I just get prickly when I feel like someone is trying to tell me how to feel or what to think.

No, I’m trying to start a new religion. I hear the benefits are pretty sweet. You are obviously some kinda heathen.

Seriously, though. I’m *IN* academia, and when I read stuff like this, I invariably want to tell the author to shut the fuck up and go wander around in the real world for a while.

Marry me.

We need smart kids raised by smart parents. So get to breeding, T&U! And please post the videos…

I get this argument every month or so from my in-laws. It’s the least creepy of their arguments,

I think the in-laws wanting to see your sex videos would be the creepiest of arguments, but hey, some families are closer than others.

That’s probably somewhat true in my case. I find it hard to be self-confident about something as monumental as this seems to be.

Meh, there most of our history and evolution hasn’t required much wrestling with “will I be good at it”. Most of it has been “can I survive long enough to do it”.

Its the point of it all, really. Humans are about the only living creatures that have broken that mold. It is unfortunate that we have reach a point of overpopulation pressure that has caused those who should be the best and most successful breeders to also be the least willing to do it. Or perhaps unfortunate that the pressure to stop breeding has not been passed on to eveyone equally. But then, we never evolved in an environment where our own population pressures were an issue. I was thinking the other day that we really need to change to only have 5 fertile years as opposed 25 (or permanent, in the case of men).

If you consider hive creatures, most of their populations don’t bread at all. The DNA/life systems has figured out that an effective mechanism of continuance and evolution is to produce many units that do nothing but work to aid the success of the actual breeders.

And homosexuality in the wild is sometimes considered to be a benefit for the family/pride/whatever unit because it creates additional caregivers for the unit without creating additional competition within the unit for breeding. Though I think that is more speculative than demonstrated or proven.

Just random babbling… pass me another beer.

In crapsack world-related news, Sen. Murkowski is trying to stop the EPA from regulating greenhouse gases. A little CO2 never hurt anyone — just ask the Venusians.

It’s easy for y’all to say, because you wouldn’t have to deal with my whiny, cranky self.

What are we doing right now? =P

It’s easy for y’all to say, because you wouldn’t have to deal with my whiny, cranky self.

What are we doing right now? =P

Shiiiiiiiiit. This is nothing!

Which all makes a hell of a point, as long as you ignore that in Grandpa’s day A) there was still lots & lots of everything to go around, B) only a few countries had nukes & their balance of terror meant only a remote chance of them being fired off, C) there were a couple of billion fewer mouths to feed, & D) that was back when we had four normal regular seasons in every year & no archipelago of plastic in the middle of the Pacific, no vanishing glacier action, no ongoing man-made mass-extinction, & on & on & on. Entropy is a bitch. Oh, plus you have to ignore that the Nazis/Soviets didn’t really have a hope in hell of taking over the world – & that if they somehow had done so, their empire would’ve imploded within a couple of years from internal strife, inertia & corruption just like every other empire in human history. But yeah, other than that, PWNED!

Uh-huh, except that (A) wasn’t true during the war or the Great Depression; (B) is obvious in retrospect because we’re all still here to talk about it, but it was not obvious at the time, as the Cuban Missile Crisis shows; and (C) again, this did not provide much of a benefit during the Depression, and anyway we had a smaller population but less efficient technology to produce the food. (D) is more or less true, except for the bizarre bit about the seasons (I live in the Northeast, and I assure you we have all four), and the bit about the Nazis and the Soviets is, again, most obvious in retrospect.

Which was actually the point–crises that seem inescapable at the time are often not so in retrospect, because a sufficient number of people are sane enough to find ways around them. Which means, in turn, that we’re not necessarily doomed.

another j said,

Marry me.

Taken, alas!

In all seriousness, navel-gazing is the occupational hazard of entering the academic world, and I’m desperately afraid of falling victim to it. I see it all the time in my own field of psychology and neuroscience. You get these people who blather on endlessly about some clinical condition or another, and it’s obvious that they’ve never really dealt with anyone who actually HAS the condition and thus don’t know the first thing about it. Specifically, they often don’t know that the diagnostic criteria in, say, the DSM-IV are very rigid *only so that* insurance companies will let us bill them; in practice, they are honored in the breach, and no sane person is going to refuse to diagnose and treat a rape victim with PTSD just because she doesn’t meet criterion B or whatever. So you get piles of papers that, on a clinical level, are almost completely useless…though I suppose they do keep the paper mills alive.

Pat Benatar had a much more cogent philosophy.

No, I’m trying to start a new religion. I hear the benefits are pretty sweet.

No doubt, that’s one way to ca$h in on the Barnum Principle.

But … who will save you from your followers?

But … who will save you from your followers?

thats what they make koolaid for. duh.

Possible good news on that front.
HA HA the original paper is going for a Guinness Book of Records entry by having a list of authors that’s three times longer than the abstract.

With plenty of reason to fear our extinction, I’d say writing arguments inviting us to choose voluntary extinction is the wimpiest of all possible cop-outs. For most humans, extinction is far more odious than our individual guaranteed deaths, whether we have children or not.