Torturers Must Not Endure Moar Butthurt, Says Preznit
Obama is being wingnutty:
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama declared Wednesday he would try to block the court-ordered release of photos showing U.S. troops abusing prisoners, abruptly reversing his position out of concern the pictures would “further inflame anti-American opinion” and endanger U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You suck.
He said the photos had already served their purpose in investigations of “a small number of individuals.” Those cases were all concluded by 2004, and the president said “the individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken.”
Just a few bad apples, sure.
“This is not a situation in which the Pentagon has concealed or sought to justify inappropriate action,” Obama said of the photos. “In fact, the most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”
Richard Cheney could not have said it better.
Yeah, well, let me tell you what else puts the troops in (actually greater) danger: showing the world that you will continue the policies — and indeed use the same sort of rhetoric — of the assholes in the previous administration. More broadly, America’s propensity for fighting stupid, counter-productive, colonial wars gets shitloads of our troops killed, but here you are intensifying just such a war in Afghanistan. If you were really interested in saving the troops’ lives, you’d bring them home.
In contrast to the claims of generals only interested in the institutional form of CYA, who’ve apparently four-star-struck you into breaking one of your most decent campaign promises, here’s Lawrence Wilkerson’s take on what really happens when pictures of abuse are shown to the world:
My investigations have revealed to me–vividly and clearly–that once the Abu Ghraib photographs were made public in the Spring of 2004, the CIA, its contractors, and everyone else involved in administering “the Cheney methods of interrogation”, simply shut down. Nada. Nothing. No torture or harsh techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator. Period. People were too frightened by what might happen to them if they continued.
What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009.
Your bullshit that this is a military decision is just that — bullshit. This is a political decision: You know it, I know it, the gleeful Village Idiots to whom you are totally sucking up know it, your personality cultists* know it. You’re supposed to be better than this.
*Already this has been misconstrued. Cultists are discussed in the link; the link’s author is of course no cultist (quite the opposite). I like Glenn.
Ugh. Yet I remain hopeful.
“the individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken.”
Yeah, they threw America’s sweetheart in prison, wasn’t that enough?
You know what would be a better way not to inflame anti-American opinion than trotting out the same tired-ass argument Bush already made and the courts already rejected? PUNISHING TORTURERS all the way to the fucking top.
A-motherfuckin’-men.
Ahh, but “Dick, the” is still pushing this to the forefront, because he can’t stand to be seen as wrong.
He is wrong, but hey, now memos are surfacing showing that the torture was to get the prisoners to confirm a non-existent link between Iraq and the terrorists.
The war they lied us into.
Look at the big picture. The storm clouds are gathering.
Calling Greenwald a “personality cultist” is pretty dumb. He’s been whacking away at Obama’s half-assed stances on torture, releasing the photos, etc. on a pretty regular basis lately.
What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009.
How does Lawrence Wilkerson know this?
OMG I’m not calling Glenn a personality cultist; I’m linking to him because HE’s bashing the personality cultists.
butbutbut I thought Obama was OUR LIBERAL GOD who we never ever never criticized, lest he unleash the GOVERNMENT POWER on us to crush our free spirits!
Ah, I knew I could find it ON TEH INTERTUBES:
This kind of thing worked so well for Bill Clinton, after all
Less mangoes, more reading comprehension. Also.
I’m finding it harder and harder to admire Obama when he’s continuing missile strikes in Pakistan, escalating the war in Afghanistan, and doing this shit. It’s completely at odds with his more (not very, but more) liberal domestic policies, which makes it look like he doesn’t give a shit about non-Americans, which is supposed to be a Republican trademark.
Pere, I know what you’re saying, but I think you’re letting the trolls get to you too much. Accusations that everyone who voted for Obama is a personality cultist are of course made by trolls in bad faith and can be laughed at or ignored. But there are indeed personality cultists out there, they aren’t rare, and they are dangerous.
HTML Mencken – my bad, “misconstrued” is a kind way to put it
butbutbut I thought Obama was OUR LIBERAL GOD who we never ever never criticized, lest he unleash the GOVERNMENT POWER on us to crush our free spirits!
When I pulled the lever for him in November, I figured he would most likely triangulate his way out of most of the things that lefties wanted him to do. So, I’m not surprised.
But the whole torture thing has, thanks to Cheney, started taking on a life of its own. They were torturing people to get them to confess to fake Hussein/Al Quaeda links, to justify their dirty little war. Eventually we’re going to need an independent prosecutor to get to the bottom of that.
But there are indeed personality cultists out there, they aren’t rare, and they are dangerous.
Who? Maybe I’m just watching too much Rachel Maddow and spending too much time here and at Alicublog, but I’d be hard pressed to think of any who fit that description.
Other than Glenn Greenwald’s commenters, I mean.
Good question, since Wilkerson wasn’t in the government then. Actually I expect he’s wrong on the categorical “no further torture” bit, but I believe he’s probably right that it was massively curtailed, and not because the torturers suddenly became human, but because they, true to their monster nature, were scared of the sunlight of publicity.
I’m disappointed by this too. But, OTOH, I don’t really need to see the pictures. I don’t need to see crime scene pictures as long as I know the jury trying the criminals are seeing them.
So don’t release the pictures. But prosecute the authors of the policy.
That was a repulsive statement, wasn’t it? Did he farm out to some ex-Bush speechwriters to work it up?
Obama owns this shit now. It doesn’t matter that he didn’t create the gulags; he’s just taken them under his wing, and when the torture shit hits the fan (as inevitably it will) then he’ll deserve whatever of it blows back on him.
Obama came into office with greater (however unearned) moral authority than any president I’ve seen in my adult lifetime, which extends back to Jimmy Carter. But all he and his people can see is the political chess game. They’re masters of it, sure, but it’s the wrong game now and the wrong moment to be playing it. I don’t think Obama’s capable of any real understanding of the transformational hopes that surrounded him on his election, and in a few short months he’s gone a great distance to utterly squandering them, and the real, generational opportunity that was (briefly) in his grasp.
Stupid temporizing centrist fuckwads.
Oh no, I just got back into this thing and I’m not about to get into a flamewar with bloggers like — Ah, you almost tricked me into saying it!
Seriously, though, you can find them if you look.
The world will correctly assume the photos are reeeeeeeeeally bad; perhaps worse than even the Abu Ghraib photos.
We can only hope someone will leak them so the pressure can be maintained on the president to prosecute the highest level perpetrators: Cheney, Bush, Yoo, etc.
We can only hope someone will leak them so the pressure can be maintained on the president to prosecute the highest level perpetrators: Cheney, Bush, Yoo, etc.
Maybe that’s why he’s not releasing them: expecting they will be leaked, and he’ll have plausible deniability with the military faction? I know, I’m grasping at straws.
We’re screwed, & big time. In every aspect of social, political, cultural, economic & you name it existence, it’s over. Our grand-children will boil alive in their own wastes (& love it.) New boss/old boss. Whatever. They can bring in a new manager every yr., but the team is still owned by the same creeps.;
On a less serious note, we should remember that Afghanistan’s neighbor (less like a neighbor than a house next door where everyone is your brothers, sisters, cousins or other relatives, there’s no fence & the front door is never locked) Pakistan does have WMD.
So I’m not sure that just getting out of there now is the best long-term answer.
I’m disappointed by this too. But, OTOH, I don’t really need to see the pictures. I don’t need to see crime scene pictures as long as I know the jury trying the criminals are seeing them.
what jury? what trial? what charges have been laid? I haven’t seen anyone from the previous admin, in handcuffs.
But there are indeed personality cultists out there, they aren’t rare, and they are dangerous.
Ah, I know what you mean; I was just knee-jerk snarking.
I went through something similar during Clinton’s admin – it took me a while before I could accept a criticism of him as a valid dissenting viewpoint instead of mere wingnuttery, and when I made that transition I was as ready to criticize as anyone.
It’s disappointing to see Obama seemingly take the same tack as Clinton did – it won’t work for him any better than it did back in ’93, and if he keeps this shit up we might see another loss for the Dems in 2010. Though I think people are looking more to domestic policies right now, which is bad of us but understandable.
as an aside, if they get leaked, there’s a chance another country will launch a prosecution. Like Spain.
Testify, HTML. The ability to mount principled criticism of our own leaders when they fuck up is one of the (million) things that makes us better than the wingnuts. That, and not being utter shitbags.
Thanks, Dr. O., but I think I’ll just stick to tylenol for the inflamation…
Big fucking deal. Why do “we” “need” to see the photos right now? In case no one has noticed, the whole torture thingy is moving at a rapid clip without Barack’s involvement. Pictures being released for public consumption is not integral to this thing moving along. It is moving along quite well on its own. Does anyone really believe that the photos won’t come out sooner or later? The pictures are evidence of a crime. No prosecutor would want the public to see his evidence before the time is right.
Stupid temporizing centrist fuckwads.
That’s America for you, isn’t it?
I think he’s just playing his cards close to his vest, and letting the wheels of public opinion and justice turn. These prosecutions can happen without him feeling political fallout if he does it just right…
No, no, no, libs! You will now show your hypocritical selves and support Obama and this picture-release flip-flop! You will do this because you are sheep and he is your Messiah! Do it now, libs!!1!
If they were new pictures, showing abuse that hadn’t, or isn’t already, being litigated, I’d worry about it.
But they’re not. So I’m not worried.
It’s not like we can use them to wave in the wingnuts face and say, ‘see? They’re still doing it!’ because these aren’t those pictures.
But the uninformed voter will. And then say, ‘See? Obama looks nice, but he’s still doing it.’ They don’t actually care when the photos were taken.
The pictures are evidence of a crime. No prosecutor would want the public to see his evidence before the time is right.
If things are rolling along quite nicely without the photos being released and no prosecutore would want etc… why didn’t Obama say “I’m not releasing the photos because they will be used as evidence in court….” hmmm?
The point is that he promised transparency and, all of a sudden, he sounds like Bush The Unitary Executive.
We can talk all day about the pictures themselves, but as HTML Mencken so eloquently pointed out, it’s Obama’s language on this issue that’s downright scary.
“f things are rolling along quite nicely without the photos being released and no prosecutore would want etc… why didn’t Obama say “I’m not releasing the photos because they will be used as evidence in court….” hmmm?”
Because he wants to get things done politically? Which won’t happen if the pics are released right now. He’s not a prosecutor. It doesn’t matter what he says with respect to prosecution. An inquiry is inevitable at this point. It does not matter what steps he takes or what he says.
In re Wilkerson, I linked to the article the above quote came from, a thread or two back. I believe it was at TPMCafe but I can’t be, in the words of Smut Clyde, arsed to find it.
Maybe that’s why he’s not releasing them: expecting they will be leaked, and he’ll have plausible deniability with the military faction? I know, I’m grasping at straws
There is something to be said for it though. The previous court decision didn’t leave much room to hope the next court would reverse. The legal legs Obama is standing on are awfully shaky. I’m pretty sure he knows that, as I believe he knows a thing or two about Constitutional law. The hope is, he’s keeping his powder dry w.r.t. the pentagon by not publically opposing them – while knowing that the poop will be shat sooner or later.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to retint my glasses; the rosiness is fading.
I hear you on this and I agree that Obama is being too fucking politically mealymouthed on coming out against these illegal and immoral horrors, but just a coupla things man. One is that you said that the release of the Abu Ghraib photos reined in these criminals but that’s only true to some degree–it did not stop them altogether not by a long shot and also, most important, according to my brother who was in middle of the iraq hellhole when Abu ghraib was exposed and he said shit there became 100 times scarier there after that. Not that it means the exposure shouldn’t have happened but there are real consequences man and we still have a lot of people on the firing line so please do not dismiss the concern over that.
Also what is exposing these photos gonna stop now? Obama has said that the torture tactics, etc, have stopped, and there is no reason not to believe him. So there’s nothing that’s gonna be stopped by making these things public and we might be inflaming violence against our troops in the field. I am not saying you don’t make some good points overall but man this is just not a cut and dried issue, not at all.
I am concerned about how this criticism of our President and his staff might divide the already tentative unity of the American Left. I don’t like torture, nobody does. But we should trust men like Obama and Emmanuel and the rest of the crew. Let’s just keep quiet and see where he’s going with all this. I’m sure Obama is intelligent and kind and has great abs and a lot of college kids hugged each other and got stoned when he won, so this is all going to turn out fine.
Hope.
Also, as to the content of these new pics, recall that Rumsfeld talked about them way back when. If I may paraquote, “there’s much worse stuff that hasn’t come out.”
Also also, Sy Hersh says there are vids of Iraqi women watching their children get sodomized. How he knows such things I do not know but he’s been prescient if not entirely accurate thus far.
Please allow me to be devil’s advocate here for a second.
From what I’ve heard of the pictures that haven’t been released yet, it’s possible some of them may include actual child rape. Seriously.
Hope to whatever God or Gods that may exist, that this isn’t true and this wasn’t done in America’s name.
But if those pics get out, that could be the end of whatever good may come of US’ involvement in the Middle East. Which, yeah I know, is 99.87% for oil. But still, no good will come of inflamed riotous disorder that could follow.
Now, that’s separate from rooting out everyone responsible for this, and all their buddies who knew about it and did nothing, all the way to the top, and jailing them away for basically forever. That I support totally.
But if these photos are that bad, releasing them to the public may not actually be a good thing. Just saying.
I also would like to venture forth the alternate possibility, that Obama is playing this out so he will be able to legitimately say: “Look, I tried to not release these inflammatory photos, but the courts overruled me and that’s all there is to it.”
In any case, either way, we’ll find out soon.
It’s good to see I have some influence over the current President, as he now agrees with my point of view.
CHANGE!
I agree with chimpevil and ratdropping and the rest who are making very valid points. Obama is a smart man who knows exactly what he is doing. Who are we to criticize what is, after all, classified information? Information that could be damaging if leaked? Surely all would be just as supportive of another administration or executive who makes the same points that Obama the Dreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmy is making with his bedroom eyes and his audacity of hope.
Thank God we finally have a man with principles in the White House, a man with more in his (big, sexy, dreeeeeeaaaaaaaaaamy brain) than, you know, preserving an Empire.
Change.
Hope, the audacity thereof.
It doesn’t matter what he says with respect to prosecution. An inquiry is inevitable at this point. It does not matter what steps he takes or what he says.
I’m glad you’re confident. I’m not. Obama’s already said he won’t prosecute the people who tortured. He’s not made any commitment to go after the authors of the torture bills. Now he’s saying he won’t release the photos because they’ll inflame the world and put offshore soldiers at risk.
After Bush, Obama’s steps and statements matter a great deal. Expectations of him are high.
I agree with President Obama. He listened to his Generals and ignored the far-left whining in his own party. Good for him.
BTW, it’s a lot of fun to see you libs having a little civil war over this! Can the Democrat Party survive?
Ah, the old “11-dimensional chess” speculation. It’s a nice thought, but I’ve seen zero evidence it has ever actually been true. Obama is the same guy he’s always been, a centrist Democrat with the mad skillz at vaguely positive speechifying. Forward, not back! Upward, not forward! Etc…
Buyer’s remorse, libs?
Maybe you should have voted for Nader or McKinney. Losers.
Testify, HTML. The ability to mount principled criticism of our own leaders when they fuck up is one of the (million) things that makes us better than the wingnuts. That, and not being utter shitbags.
Yeah but you know, what if I have principled disagreements with the criticisms, does that you mean you will call me an obamabot or some other bullshit appelation? I mean the issue of whether these photos should be released is not a simple one, and why should we display the same poisonous cynicism that the “shitbags” spew out when we try to sort out the motivations of our politicians, especially one like Obama that seems to have a decent moral grounding?
After Bush, Obama’s steps and statements matter a great deal. Expectations of him are high.
I agree with that, but I also think he’s got to be smart about how things get done.
The Villagers, and the rethugs, and the corporate Democrats are all for the status quo: pro-torture, pro-corporation, anti-democracy.
Obama is a DLC Democrat, let’s recall back in the primary days when the question was which DLC Democrat we were going to pick (while holding our noses).
But he’s played his cards well…I’m not ready yet to say he’s sold us down the river.
(more metaphor mixing to follow)
Yet it’s still pulled out every time he goes against his campaign promises. I love the, “he’s actively trying to get a court ruling against his own argument/case” meme. So lame and also completely speculative to the point of being mere wishful thinking. Talk about the audacity of hope. The proponents seem to forget that it would also mean he’s a liar.
What time limit should be put on giving our heroic moral leader the benefit of this doubt?
Btw, are all the secret prisons closed?
I could have told all of you all BO was a liar back in July.
But you didn’t listen!
How does it feel to be sold out, libs? Hmmm?
After all, we are talking about a Chicago politician who launched his career in the home of a domestic terrorist, who named a book after a sermon by his anti-American pastor, then threw him under the bus when he was no longer needed for political reasons.
What do you expect from such a shitbag like Hopey?
Why I, for one, am elated by Obama’s throbbing, turgid, soaking wet, glistening message of Changeiness and Hopelikeness. Seriously, were there people who didn’t think this was what they were signing on for during his campaign? I mean….are there really people right now feeling let down? Were there people who believed that Change would come because the Imperial Administrator was now a black dude with a booming voice who plays basketball shirtless?
Wow. Just. Wow.
I’ve seen it suggested, and frankly believe it myself, that the additional photos and documentary evidence don’t involve torture or enhanced interrogation, but rather other violations of Geneva Conventions which are just as illegal as violations of the CAT.
Widespread and commonplace violations, the sort which cannot simply be passed off as being due to “bad apples” without providing compelling evidence that the entire orchard is rotten.
HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE HOPE ‘n CHANGE
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
I applaud the President’s decision.
Me too, Rush!
I couldn’t have done it any better myself!
As evidenced by the host of changelings using this name a mere minutes after I first posted, we are truly ALL post-partisans, today.
Heh. Indeed, Sean!
Oh my! How will the Democrats ever survive this!?!?
Obama is a, gasp, politician and not the messiah the right wing sez we say he is?!
President Obama has stood up to the far left and those who hate America today.
Remember when I flip-flopped and voted for FISA, but the liberals still chose me over Nader or McKinney?
Keep sucking!
Blart:
And nor is he the morally courageous, basically decent dude that so many of his supporters were loudly, stridently demanding George Bush should have been. But if you’re saying “Hey, chill out and let’s accept that the practical differences between the putative right and putative left branches of the property party, regardless of the personalities on parade in public view, are not really very substantial” then brotha, lemme give you an amen.
Well, at least he got the trolls to defend him. Who knew?
applaud everyone for not responding to the Republican-loving-torture-supporting trolls.
Thank you.
(Child rape eh? If facts supporting this come out, the wingnuts might have to shut the fuck up already. Oh I forgot, they lack shame.)
I’ve seen zero evidence it has ever actually been true.
Ohh, and you’ve got 11-D vision then? HMMMM??!?!?!
But srsly, the only evidence is lack of evidence. Which, as we all know, is not evidence. We can see that he’s outmaneuvered jast about everyone on both sides thus far.
Part of the problem is that Obama has to maneuver. He can’t just do whatever damn thing he wants. Yes, I’m talking about politics but not merely surface politics. There’s an embedded bureaucracy which might, from certain viewpoints, represent the real power in DC. He has to work a lot of hidden levers.
That said, if that’s his plan, I think he’s got the wrong plan. For my metaphor, this country has serious heart disease. The core components aren’t acting in sync. The US is suffering cardiac arrest. A massive shock is exactly what we need.
We’ve got NOTHING else to hang out hats on these days, so let’s make hay boys! Guffaw, harrumph, etc.
Seriously, how does it feel that the Obamamessiah agrees with me and not you? Suckers.
BTW, it’s a lot of fun to see you libs having a little civil war over this! Can the Democrat Party survive?
And oh BTW fuck you shithead and all the con cowards and fools who are like, oh Obama’s caved and the libs are infighting or whatever. You know what, not one of you sycophantic hiveminded fools know NOTHING, not one thing, about liberals, or for that matter how our democratic system was meant to work. We the people have never been meant to march in lockstep to our fearless fucking leaders orders and we on the left will always disagree with each other and discuss issues and try to solve problems because we ain’t goosestepping daddy-loving freaks. And yes I’m an angry lib but is there any wonder why when ignorant know nothings like you drive so much of the agenda in this country?
Face it libs–you were sold out by a Chicago thug. You got mugged today.
At least some of you realize this. The rest will keep asking for more, like a battered wife.
If nothing else, Obama is a consummate politician. By fighting the release of the photos he is admitting that there is some pretty ugly stuff in the old dossier. Now he’s caught the Rethugs in their own trap. He’s done exactly what they wanted him to do and, at the same time, made them proclaim their own gult. That’s why they’re all over the tube desperately arguing that torture isn’t torture.
And, what the fuck is twoofie’s “point?” Does anyone now regret voting for Obama? Perhaps one or two of us but I suspect the vast majority of us still feel we made the best choice, no? Troofie – you need to get caught up on your meds, kid.
Hm, I was hoping there’d be something here besides the usual “let’s bukkake all over Troofie” routine.
How foolish of me.
You know where is tintin’s damn disemvoweler when you need it cause it would have been nice to be able to discuss this without these damn gnats flying in our faces.
My point, PeeJ, is that the left wing of the Democrat Party are a bunch of suckers. Clueless suckers who got sucked into the Obama Cult and now are getting burned with reality. Well, some of you. The rest of you are too mesmorized by “Hope N Change!” to realize it.
Do you know what we did to Bush when he tried to push liberal Harriet Myers on us, or tried to ram amnesty for illegals through Congress? We rebelled. That’s what the right wing did.
Obama could nominate Dick Cheney to the Supreme Court tomorrow and and about half of you all would just take it up the ass because you believe in HOPE ‘N CHANGE!
[Obama] can’t just do whatever damn thing he wants.
Unlike the last president who did whatever Cheney asked.
Yeah but you know, what if I have principled disagreements with the criticisms, does that you mean you will call me an obamabot or some other bullshit appelation? I mean the issue of whether these photos should be released is not a simple one, and why should we display the same poisonous cynicism that the “shitbags” spew out when we try to sort out the motivations of our politicians, especially one like Obama that seems to have a decent moral grounding?
Absolutely not. The fact that we can have different opinions and actively debate this stuff here makes me proud to be liberal, and makes me love hanging with teh Sadlies. My personal position is a lack of belief in 12-dimensional chess champions; I can voice my criticisms, and if/when they’re proven unfounded, I’m more than happy to say I was wrong. My lack of faith in our elected representatives is cynical, I’ll admit, but I don’t think its poisonous.
I usually don’t respond to moron trolls like The Whole Truth etc. but the real whole truth is that he’s going to have to build a roof to make sure the ants don’t piss on him.
If I’ve learned anything since the Obama presidency began, it’s that we left-leaning Americans are nothing but 1000% in step with the Sor, er, Obama agenda. And now that there’s a sniff of yowling in the air it must mean it’s back to the political wilderness for us. Back to that permanent Republican majority that I bookmarked. Sigh.
Shit, you all type a fuck of a lot faster than I do.
Allow me to add on to Peej’s insightful, super-convincing defense of Obama:
Part of the problem is that Obama has to maneuver. He can’t just do whatever damn thing he wants. Yes, I’m talking about politics but not merely surface politics. There’s an embedded bureaucracy which might, from certain viewpoints, represent the real power in DC. He has to work a lot of hidden levers….and if we, moreover, and there is hardly less reason to believe that this is than that this isn’t the case, allowing for certain Ideals which, though they may exist in some Platonic heaven do not, all things considered, by in large, when we come down to brass tacks, assert themselves, that is to say tangibly, with regard to the actual Substance as opposed to merely the form, and furthermore considering, as I feel we must, if we move into a different kind of lighting, a lighting of a quality and a qualia with which we, who do not breathe the same rarefied air as Them, are not entirely familiar, I say it again as we move into a lighting where the apple is no longer apple colored, which is to say that the mis en place, the set and the setting, the milieu and the very essence of what Being Is, where the nothing nothings endlessly whirring, cranking, gears grinding but always, always, as certain fortunes in certain numbered trusts in certain banks on the coast grow exponentially, as the flesh and blood of a single generation can be regarded as little more than the coefficient of vast bloodlines and ancient family histories, which is to say, to put it simply, to come to the point, that given the givens we must give Obama every benefit of every doubt because surely, in that Rarefied heaven where Ideals are actualized and eschatons immanentized, Obama is playing a game that we cannot begin to understand down here, here in the world of grimy windowpanes and yellow fog, here where the apple is always and only apple colored and yes, my friends, we must assume, we must know, that Obama is great, Obama is good, and we are all but sinners in the hands of an angry, but audaciously hopeful, God.
I could continue but I see post partisan is making my point for me better than I ever could.
Again, you libs just got mugged in the back alley by a Chicago Thug.
Does anyone really believe that the photos won’t come out sooner or later? The pictures are evidence of a crime. No prosecutor would want the public to see his evidence before the time is right.
From your lips to god’s ear.
How awesome would it be if the reason Obama declined to release them is that it’s being viewed as evidence? After he’d got all the rightwingers to praise him for finally doing something right, the photos come out anyway in the course of a trial.
If only. I fear my Unicorn and Rainbows Meter doesn’t go all the way to 11.
I do agree with you that they’re gonna come out at some point. I will say this though: if there are any pictures of child rape, they don’t need to be released, ever. Just as we don’t publish pictures collected as evidence in child porn cases – because it not only feeds the sickness of kiddie porn pervs, but re-victimizes the child every time it is viewed.
And ITTDGY, Obama was not a DLCer or DLC-backed candidate. That’s why the primary was so bitterly contested – the DLC wanted their girl to get the nod.
The election required a vote. A vote doesn’t mean I agree with every decision/action the one I voted for makes.
Worship and building little shrines of leaders isn’t a requirement of citizens unless you live in North Korea or Rushville.
Challenging and questioning the decisions of leaders is.
Annals of Oxymoronia:
our politicians, especially one like Obama that seems to have a decent moral grounding?
Things are not what they seem …
I could continue but I see post partisan has more than two brain cells to rub together, unlike me
is making my point for me better than I ever could.fxd.
Voting for Nader or McKinney would have gotten us McCain, of course.
One of my hopes-upon-hopes is that 1) if the Rebublican party splits in two, 2) that this might eventually bring us a system with more than two *valid* parties.
In the mean time, let me say I share disappointment in this decision by Obama…I’m just hoping he has a better reason for it than he well might.
if there are any pictures of child rape, they don’t need to be released, ever.
I’m pretty sure it’s a crime to release photos of children being sexually assaulted. That’s what pedophiles do.
So Lesley:
Let me put it to you simply: Is it more or less morally reprehensible for a decent Democrat to let torture bygones by torture bygones than it would be for a dastardly Republican, one who was not directly involved in the Administration that applauded and fetishized the torture, to simply shrug and say “Well. This is about as far as we’re willing to go right now, folks”?
post partisan, keep showing these libs reality!
You kick ass.
Of course, HTML is absolutely right.
Just goes to show: punk music is by far the worst music ever created in the history of mankind. If you really want to get tough on al-Qaeda and make’em cough up whatever they got just make ’em listen to a bunch of Sonic Youth and Minor Threat. Volume doesn’t matter as long as they can hear it.
But that would be unconscionable and a clear violation of Common Article 3. Not even a ticking time bomb scenario with nukes ticking down in every major city in the U.S. could begin to justify that.
Obama’s statement today was purest Bush-Cheney cant. He’s not secretly maneuvering to assist investigations and prosecutions, and he’s not hoping that events overtake him and the torturers get theirs.
How do I know? Because I can read. Because Obama’s just explicitly signed on to, explicitly endorsed, the coverup of torture as a military necessity. He’s just explicitly agreed with the “bad apples” scenario, and asserted that all necessary steps against them have already been taken. If he were secretly with the anti-torture Left on this, then he’d have screwed the pooch for himself pretty badly today, because he’s just joined the coverup party.
Honestly, this “he’s just working his incredible political mind-fu” stuff is becoming pathetic.
One of my hopes-upon-hopes is that 1) if the Rebublican party splits in two, 2) that this might eventually bring us a system with more than two *valid* parties.
Agreed and seconded, but for the Republicans. The Re-bub-licans are the party of adamantium claw fetishists and Hugh Jackman fans, and are mostly harmless. Snikt.
Lesley sed Unlike the last president who did whatever Cheney
askedtold him to do.That’s what I had been thinking when I wrote whatever it was I said. Prolly what you meant to, I figure.
Meh. I’m more than willing to wait on the actual ruling.
After Abu Graib, I quit indulging in silver bullet thinking. Even for fun.
Annals of Oxymoronia:
our politicians, especially one like Obama that seems to have a decent moral grounding?
Things are not what they seem
why aren’t they? let’s discuss
Meanwhile, via TNR, The Corner is trolling itself.
And they’re worked up over something serious, not “enhanced interrogation”: How popular or un-popular Limbaugh is.
Mr. Dietz,
Honestly, this “he’s just working his incredible political mind-fu” stuff is becoming pathetic.
Perhaps you missed all the qualifiers. The “perhaps”es, the “maybe”s, the “some people think”ses, and all the rest. Have you yourself become afflicted with the “must be 100% for or 100% against” mind virus? Or perhaps you missed the part where someone – oh was it…oh yes, me! – said 1. I’m wearing rose colored glasses and 2. IF that’s what he’s doing he’s on the wrong track.
Get a looser grip on yerself, kid.
abruptly reversing his position out of concern the pictures would “further inflame anti-American opinion” and endanger U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan
A bit too late for that now, dontcha think?
This move is neither ethical nor smart. Time for some real public uproar. Out of the way, you patheic teabaggers.
PeeJ…aren’t you forgetting something?
man, Obama’s like Bobby Fisher, Boris Spassky, and a 1000 Deep Blue supercomputers networked in parallel playing eleventy-gajillion dimensional backwards speed chess underwater — with no queen.
“Pathetic”, that is. Speaking of which, I see Johnny One Note is back to bore us some more.
If there is evidence of the US military/intelligence engaging in the rape of children or adults, I would hope the prosecution builds a strong case for including these in the torture bill prosecutions. Military authorities will say they never ordered or condoned tortures not included in the bill that Bush signed off, but once that light turned green escalation was bound to happen. The ‘few bad apples’ defense cannot be permitted to fly.
Once you start physically and mentally hurting and degrading people, who knows where you’ll end up. The more they engaged the less value they placed on the lives they manhandled. Waterboard ’em today, rape ’em tomorrow. Separate prosecutions would be a complete cop out.
Because politician & “decent moral grounding” cannot be used in the same sentence. A politician, by definition, cannot have a moral grounding (whatever that is, morals being a matter of geography & all, as we cosmopolitan, situational ethics libroolz know).
PeeJ — you’re much more interested in your delicately-parsed qualms than I am.
Help! My buttons! They are being pushed!!!
Probably. I’d forget my ass if it wasn’t glued on.
Lesley said,
May 15, 2009 at 2:04
What time limit should be put on giving our heroic moral leader the benefit of this doubt?
===========================================================
Is there some time limit on how soon one must declare their condemnation?
“I was against Obama on May 14, 2009, before all you dirty hippies in name only showed up!”
For me, torture investigations and trials are a deal-braker. As in, I expect them to happen, and if they don’t, I will join the Obama = Judas parade.
I just don’t see why I need to have my name at the top of the list. Neither Obama, nor Pelosi, ordered these atrocities.
The people who did are Dick Cheney and his youthful ward, der Chimpenführer.
Let’s leave the false equivalence to the trolls and their heroes.
~
I’m pretty sure it’s a crime to release photos of children being sexually assaulted.
What, we have a President who might not want to violate the law in the name of all that is good, true, and pure?
Huh. Imagine that.
Well then, while regretting the blatant gimmick infringement…
PENIS.
More and more leftist infighting.
Now the Relentless Cunt (ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©) declares Obama to be “Judas!” Wow!
*grabs popcorn*
PeeJ — you’re much more interested in your delicately-parsed qualms than I am.
Ah. You don’t actually read what people write, you only read things what appeals to your preexisting inclination/condition/bias. No wonder you get so fizzed.
Are you guys sure there’s no way to get a pie-fu script to work on Opera?
*sigh* Even I’m getting tired of the same dumb Party lines over and over.
In the end, Bush and Cheney won. They won. Their version of policy has won out. Suck on it!
oohh ooohh ooohh
PENIS.
Also, PENIS. Also.
h/t OMC
Tintin, if you’ve got your ears on, please throw the switch and disemvowel this miserable motherfucker already.
Ohh! Libs, what will the Europeans think of us now!?
What will the Aussies and Japanese think?
I thought Obama was the World Savior! They must REALLY hate America now! OH NOES!
ROFL I’m loving it!
In the end, Bush and Cheney won.
Oh that’s funny. That’s got me chuckling big time.
My dear possum fart, it aint over. The end is not here. Except for you.
oohh ooohh ooohh
PENIS.
Also, PENIS. Also.
That’s better. No matter how serious the topic, any thread is made more enjoyable by PeeJ’s PENIS.
…that didn’t come out right.
For me, torture investigations and trials are a deal-braker. As in, I expect them to happen, and if they don’t, I will join the Obama = Judas parade.
I’m with you, brother.
“For me, torture investigations and trials are a deal-braker. As in, I expect them to happen, and if they don’t, I will join the Obama = Judas parade.”
We’re not happening.
Troofy is now munching on styrofoam packing kernels because he thinks ifthethunder said the opposite of what he said. Nice reading comprehension there, and welcome comic relief.
Hey, back when Jeremiah Wright said Obama is a politician and he makes his decisions accordingly, I thought he was spot-on. Now the trick is to let the guy know he is making a Very Politically Unpopular Decision here, and he might wise up.
Agree with you totally about the substance.
But, as they say, what’s your point?
Politics matter, and this particular politician has an awful lot on his plate.
If we could just jail Cheney, I would be satisfied. So, I suspect, would be W The Lesser Bush.
There’s going to be a drip, drip, drip on this whole deal for quite some time, and Obama serves himself (and us, I think) by keeping his hands as clean as he can over it. We have some serious “forward” (I know, I know) thinking to do.
As much as I would love to see these fucks take it up the ass for the next several years, I’m just plain more worried about health care and supertrains. Among other things they’re trying to get done.
*sigh* If it helps, I hate myself for it.
You know who’s probably REALLY pissed about this? Ol’ Chuck Graner – Mr. Abu Ghraib himself, doing a ten-spot at Leavenworth.
He’s the ONLY one who did serious time over any of this. And is there much doubt at this point that he was simply doing more or less what he was encouraged to do by his superiors?
Now, lest anyone accuse me of misplaced sympathy, I’m not saying we should let Chuck out. I’m just saying it’s a real shame he doesn’t have some cell-mates. One fuck of a lot of cell-mates, so he’ll never be lonely again.
Too bad it’s looking less and less likely that will happen. Sorry, Chuck – I tried.
We’re not happening either.
Ahem.
The gun is good; the penis is evil.
“Now the trick is to let the guy know he is making a Very Politically Unpopular Decision here, and he might wise up.”
Obama is will have flip-flopped even more than me, then!
Off topic, but Rush must be apoplectic today. Pfizer says it’s going to give away free Viagra to the unemployed.
Just what the unemployed need: four hour erections.
Nothing says “change!” like embracing your inner Ford!
Oh, a flip-flop! That would be terrible! How I long for the good old days of President I-Never-Made-A-Mistake-Now-Watch-This-Drive.
Just what the unemployed need: four hour erections.
Um…it could help with a transition to a new career in in the adult film industry?
As much as I would love to see these fucks take it up the ass for the next several years, I’m just plain more worried about health care and supertrains. Among other things they’re trying to get done.
I know it sounds crazy but it is actually possible to prosecute crooks and scumbags and have truth and reconciliation commissions AND make inroads in health care and the economy at the same time.
Shit, this is Amurrica, right? Didn’t she invent multitasking?
Oh, a flip-flop! That would be terrible! How I long for the good old days of President I-Never-Made-A-Mistake-Now-Watch-This-Drive.
Exactly…for the life of me, I’ll never understand why realizing you’re doing something wrong and taking corrective action is a net-negative to these tools.
Pragmatism is a bitch. Obama is being pragmatic, which is to me core to his political being.
And c’mon, Lesley! At least unemployed people with four hour erections would be too busy to mug me, rape my loved ones, and smoke crack. 🙂
Here’s my question: what’s the best way to criticize a politician that you’re in agreement with about 85% of the time when s/he does something you disagree with. Declaring them TEH ANTICHRIST (or worse, Dick Cheney), cranking the outrage amp to 11 and ripping off the knob is what activists whose allies are out of power do. We’re not there anymore. What should the new model look like?
Lesley, it is possible and even sensible with a sane media.
We don’t have one.
So we’re unfortunately fucked.
I’m not so sure about the rape part…
I think I’m pretty clear on the fact that Presidential choices are between two leading candidates vetted through an upper-class dominated system, and never once did I think I was voting for a revolutionary participatory pacifist socialist.
In FDR’s day, when he challenged labor leaders to make him do something, they could. A. Phillip Randolph promised to lead a million black people to march on Washington, DC, in the midst of segregation, in order to change defense hiring policies. He would have, to. Instead we got fair employment regulations and laws.
What have any of liberals or labor or the left pushed Obama to do? Until there’s some sort of organization which can counterpress the elite agenda, what do you expect? Idiot sniping about how Obama isn’t somebody’s Ralph Nader fantasy?
Exactly kingubu. We should just go along to get along.
OOOhhh Obama is so DREAMY isn’t he!?
Just what the unemployed need: four hour erections.
Nice way to while away the time between interviews?
That was a sardonically tasteless reply to John O at 3:11, by the way.
Oh no El Cid, we shouldn’t dare try to vote for anybody outside the Democratic Party. We should be happy to be in the same party as Arlen Specter and Ben Nelson!
JNV, I apologize for that admittedly unfortunate example. You’re right, though I suspect the dude with the four hour boner could find something closer to mugging a stranger. Like say, another crack whore.
Oh, and Evan Bayh!
Isn’t it just great being in the same party as Evan Bayh?
HOPE! CHANGE!
Am I a Nader troll, or am I Troofy playing one? Does anyone care?
Just what the unemployed need: four hour erections.
Considering 26% of them are dead-ender wingnuts (statistically), it’d be best to keep blood away from their brain for as long as possible.
I’ve got to say, though – in serving the public’s pharmaceutical needs, I’ve come to the conclusion that that stuff keeps the blood from getting back to the brain in the first place. Cialis, for some reason, is the worst – the guys on it seem to be the biggest scumbags & whiners outside of the controlled-substance freaks.
How about cranking the outrage amp to 11 and declaring Village insiders like Broder and Ignatius to be the amoral charlatans that they truly are?
And laughing at them as their source of employment drifts like away like an Atlantic sandbar.
“We’re not going to miss you, precious Journamalists, because you suck in so many bad ways.”
“Will Barack Obama be Uncle Same for the people, or an Uncle Tom for the big corporations?”
–Ralph Nader, Election Night 2008
What RACIST!!!! Surely nothing he said was ever true!
Obama is sooooooooooo progressive!
That was a sardonically tasteless reply to John O at 3:11, by the way.
How so?
Evan Bayh can go fuck himself. But he’s from Indiana, so he has his constituents to worry about.
As Stewart once put it, the two party system perfectly reflects “the bichromatic rainbow that is American political thought.”
It’s a strange, strange world we inhabit.
when s/he does something you disagree with
You don’t understand. This isn’t just “disagree with” – this is a deal-breaker for me. If you condone or excuse torture, you might as well join NAMBLA as far as I’m concerned. I will never trust you – or even want to be around you – again. I don’t care if you’re a (former) friend, a family member, whatever. If you do this, you’re dead to me, and always will be.
Are we clear now?
Uncle Same?
I thought you were referring to my reply.
I’m gonna come out and say it–Osama bin Laden is an Uncle Tom.
HA! I’m even sure who that’s supposed to be offensive to!
If that suggests your idea of pressure and class and power dynamics in this country — hey everyone, let’s save the orphanage and put on a show, with Greens! — you need to ditch the pseudo tough-left attitude and go read some books, or something.
POO! NOM NOM NOM
Lesley, I think that was MY post at 3:11. I take no offense.
I’m not here to be a pussy. I can take it. Once in a while I disagree with the prevailing wisdom, but I so appreciate the substance of the conversation it doesn’t matter to me.
Blogging aint’ beanbag. Neither is commenting. 🙂
In a perfect world, I want Truth Commissions and prosecutions and such. I just don’t think the country has the ability to handle it right now, in our peculiar world of Corporate Media and cocktail weenie dick sucking.
Realist nailed it.
HA! I’m even sure who that’s supposed to be offensive to!
Trolls don’t read books, El Cid.
It’s too dark under the bridge.
POO! I LIKE POO!
NOM NOM NOM
Ditto Lesley and Realist. No one’s going to convince me that a good President has to ignore treaty obligations and the law in order to make domestic policy. And, no one’s going to convince me he should, either.
Hey PJ, I’ll be glad to stipulate that your version of pathetic-Obama-enablement is much more nuanced and careful than anybody else’s.
Happy now? In any case, I really don’t know how my disgust with Obama’s (un-nuanced, unequivocal) taking up the Bush-Cheney line on the torture photographs became about you.
If I’m “fizzed,” as you put it, it’s because I have a pretty bright line here. The American government setting up secret gulags is pretty much the foulest thing I’ve seen it do since at least the era of the Reaganoid adventures in Central America. (You know, with the death squads and the nun-rape and such.) Apologies for it are out of bounds. Period. Temporizing about it is out of bounds.
If that makes me some sort of hothead, well, I’ll live with it.
Just what the unemployed need: four hour erections.
As a member of the gainfully unemployed, I believe we mooching losers are the only ones w/ sufficient time (& inclination to wanking) who can make effective use of this.
Therefore, I, for one, welcome any samples from our new Pfizerian overlords.
I know it sounds crazy but it is actually possible to prosecute crooks and scumbags and have truth and reconciliation commissions AND make inroads in health care and the economy at the same time.
At this very minute the committee markup and debate about whether or not a government-backed health care plan will be included in the Senate version of the health care bill. If press reports are to be believed, the “public option” is teetering on the brink as insurance company lobbyists bombard the committee members with promises to get on board with “reform” so long as the pub option is off the table (ensuring that there’s no real reform at all). I hate the phrase “crunch time” but its apt here. There will be no better moment that right now to have an impact on how this country frames its health care system.
Now, take a spin through the lefty and liberal activist blogs and watch the handful of allied CableNewsers; what are they talking about? What’s the ratio of ZOMG OBAMA == BUSH/TEH PITCHERZ/”lefties mad at Obama” stories to those that even mention the heath care bill?
Politicians, the press, yes even the blogs, cover current events like seven-year-olds play soccer: someone kicks the ball and everyone runs after it. Multi-tasking? Not so much.
In a perfect world, I want Truth Commissions and prosecutions and such. I just don’t think the country has the ability to handle it right now,
Have you noticed, John, that the world is not perfect and never will be, and therefore, under your scenario, there will never be a good time?
Obama spent the better part of his campaign reminding Americans that the road would be long and hard and require sacrifice and courage and all that blah blah rah rah, hope and change and we can do it.
The country cannot get by claiming it is delicate and can’t manage doing two difficult things at once.
My response to ‘now is not a good time’ for justice for torture victims is man up.
I think I’ve had too many boyfriends say “now is not a good time” for that talk. I do not respond well to ‘now is not a good time.’
just sayin’
Jesus fucking Christ on a soggy fucking Ritz (mmmm. . .good cracker)! I voted for the candidate who was best equipped to be the chief executive. Period. Sure, a lotta shit that goes down in the interim pisses me off. However, this photo issue is not make or break. I refuse to submit to the same sort of adolescent sports team mentality so revered by our learned opposition. This is big folk grown-up worky time, which has been sorely absent in recent socio-political experience. Reading the text generated by our resident ‘tater head trolls, we’re fortunate these little shits lost power, as they won’t be happy until the planet is a glass parking lot where the rich and righteous may finally roam free.
Like it or not, there’s a lot of politic’n goin’ on when attempting to reign in concurrent epic clusterfucks. One may argue that prosecuting war crimes takes precedent. Another may argue for economic reform. Still another may advocate climate and energy. Don’t forget health care, either. International/National security is a constant issue, no matter the hat worn by the players. Each one a legitimate concern. Corporatist priorities rule the current climate. That’s not gonna change anytime soon, revolutionist wanking notwithstanding.
No, it’s not zero-sum. But damn, as disappointing as this photo decision is, one must stay focused on maintaining a mature perspective re: dynamic world events.
kingubu nails it. Look. . .SHINEY!!!
If you condone or excuse torture, you might as well join NAMBLA as far as I’m concerned.
Look, I’m super-pissed– well, mostly really disappointed– that he’s not releasing this set of photos, but for fuck’s sake you’ve really got to do a triple-backflip into Freeperthink to make “not releasing photos” into “excusing or condoning torture”.
kingubu said,
May 15, 2009 at 3:13
I agree.
Peacocking your progressive creds and hating on the prez will not bring torturers to account. I say respect Obama and his situation – that is, the running of a complex, insanely powerful country and navigating his agenda through myriad hostile interest groups who dug themselves in long before he showed up.
It’s your country. Activate yourselves. Keep torture on the front burner. Make the equivocaters look like fools and monsters. Apply pressure. Demonstrate. Petition. T-shirts. Bumper stickers.
Here’s the internet. Form a nationwide demand-for-justice coalition.
“Now’s not the right time” is the same argument that kept Nixon out of the dock. “We face too many other important challenges” is the same argument that kept Reagan from being impeached.
The chief reason that we had to suffer the Dubya administration (and its crew of crooks seasoned in the Nixon/Reagan crucibles, Dick Cheney top of the list) is that everybody had been too busy doing all the allegedly more important and timely things to decisively root out the Republican cancer of illegal, extra-constitutional government when the opportunity arose.
Aside from simple repugnance, demanding that the torture regime be brought to account is demanding that it not happen again—in the virtually certain knowledge that it will happen again if there’s no accounting.
A government that systematically tortures foreign opponents is only one step away from one that tortures domestic opponents. There’s the urgency.
Corporatist priorities rule the current climate. That’s not gonna change anytime soon, revolutionist wanking notwithstanding.
Sad because it’s so fucking true.
The photo thing is trivial, even w/in the torture context. Until the president flat out states there will be no prosecutions, trials, inquiries, blah, I’m not getting my soiled underwear in a wad.
But damn, as disappointing as this photo decision is, one must stay focused on maintaining a mature perspective re: dynamic world events.
with all due respect, what the fuck does this even mean? It reads like a platitude on a motivational poster.
Lesley, I know you’re right. Seriously. I am one who takes the pain when it is appropriate.
This is bigger than revenge, and I have no evidence at this point it isn’t going to work out in the end to our mutual satisfaction, so I’m willing to give the man (Obama) a bit more time. He’s pretty good at playing the long game.
kingubu nails it. Look. . .SHINEY!!!
kingubu is a torture lover who is EXACTLY LIKE DICK CHENEY and we must shun he/she/it/bird/creature forever.
Or else, you go to the top of the list for DHINO (dirty hippy in name only).
THINK ABOUT IT B4 YOU POST RESPONSE!one1!
But it’s not just that. It’s his total co-option of the Bush-Cheney formulation (which is, ironically, Stalinist in style if not technically in origin) that a public display of the truth will endanger national security. That’s what’s really unforgivable. He’s using the language every repressive regime has ever used to roadblock justice.
Eeep. By ‘language’ I really mean to say, ‘rationale.’
Ahem.
First, the Abu Ghraib pics are not exactly the same issue as the torutre thing. They aren’t completely separable but treating them independently is much more likely to lead somewhere than does blind rage against the evil traitor.
I’d like to ask what you think would happen if Obama said FU to the Pentagon and released the pics. Really, he could do that. He could just do it. And there’s nothing the Pentagon could or would do to retaliate, right? And none of the GOP congressthangs, though they are not in the majority but who none the less have a lot of power at their beck and call, would do nothing except say “oh well, I guess that’s that.” Right?
And suppose Obama shoved Gibbs asie at tomorrow’s presser and said “lissen up homeys: we’re going to fuck up Dick Cheney and the rest. And we’re gonna fuck ’em up but good.” What would happen then? No, really, would anyone in congress be able to get an investigation started? I can just imagine the glut of special prosecutors that would enable.
Politics is the art of the possible. Bismarck said it a hunnert years ago. It’s still true today.
It took 3 years to hang Tojo.
Don’t look now, but I’m also embracing (flip flopping) on Terrorist Military Tribunals. I’m going to use them.
I’m rapidly approaching my Mikey quota of responses allowed and will stop and go get a life shortly…but M Bouffant, politicians (and presidents) have a tendency to be equivocal. A flat out commitment from the president to investigate and prosecute torture would be comforting to those of us who care and a lot of us do, which is one of the reasons Obama was elected.
My fear is that with the photos under wraps, and transparency not so much and “now is not a good time,” decisions about prosecutions, trials, inquiries will be quietly swept under the rug, with perhaps a token conviction of some low on the pole perp here and there.
Local police forces have been torturing “domestic opponents,” often guilty of DWB, for quite some time. (Since it was “Walking While Black,” or “Operating a Horse While Black.”) Substitute “Hispanic,” or just “Poor,” to taste.
So I doubt that any convictions for torture would really keep torture from being applied domestically. If only because the torture mentality can always justify itself to itself.
(I am somewhat proud of some FBI people for at least toeing the “torture doesn’t work” line.)
kingubu is a torture lover who is EXACTLY LIKE DICK CHENEY and we must shun he/she/it/bird/creature forever.
Wanna see some pictures? Step into my man-sized safe[ominous ellipsis, cue organist]
Didn’t you hear me?
I’m continuing the Military Tribunals in GITMO!
(Well, to be equally sarcastic) The Republicans, who are all totally with Obama until he does that would of course defect en masse. Then the American people, all of them except maybe those living on communes, would rise up against Barack Obama for the horrible, heavy-handed thing he did to precious torturers and Bush-Cheney. Then there would be a coup, with 100 percent popular support. “All hail General McChrystal and his glorious new regime.” That’s what would happen if B.O. did not completely sign on to Bush-Cheney bullshit as he has done here.
Um, except he already did, at least through Gibbs. He’s looking forward, remember? He did backtrack a little, saying “Eric Holder can do whatever the fuck he wants”, but he’s stated his intentions on this rather clearly.
I know. I really wish McCain had won now.
That’s what would happen if B.O. did not completely sign on to Bush-Cheney bullshit as he has done here.
You can’t say that.
M. Bouffant, of course you’re right about police torture. We’ve had some lovely examples of it right here in Chicago.
But I think there’s a difference between the practices of various police departments, however foul, and the sort of Pinochet-izing of the federal government that I have no doubt is a gleam in Dick Cheney’s eye.
I don’t want to sound like an alarmist freak, but we’ve just come out of eight years of a government run by people for whom the dirty wars in South America in the ’70s are aspirational. They’re not done yet, not by a long shot.
#
Lesley said,
May 15, 2009 at 3:44
But damn, as disappointing as this photo decision is, one must stay focused on maintaining a mature perspective re: dynamic world events.
with all due respect, what the fuck does this even mean? It reads like a platitude on a motivational poster.
Indeed, with sincerest respect, it means NOT moving photo-gate to the top of “the list of things to get pissed about”. kingubu’s comment re: seven year old soccer players is spot on. Distractions are anathema to the contemporary. I don’t mean to imply that the current state of torture prosecutions is overblown, far from it. It will be ongoing as long as we stay focused. However, there are many irons in the fire which also need out constant attention. Hence, the emphasis on mature perspective i.e., multi-tasking.
How do you like your Messiah now?
First, the Abu Ghraib pics are not exactly the same issue as the torutre thing. They aren’t completely separable but treating them independently is much more likely to lead somewhere than does blind rage against the evil traitor.
A legal argument could be made linking the two.
That aside, characterizing those who question Obama’s decision as irrational nutcases (being in a “blind rage”) isn’t accurate or fair.
That aside, characterizing those who question Obama’s decision as irrational nutcases (being in a “blind rage”) isn’t accurate or fair.
Neither is characterizing cooler heads as platitudinizers and O-bots.
So what do you think about BHO’s latest reversal on Military Tribunals?
He’s moving closer to Bush/Cheney every day! Maybe he’s maturing.
I’m continuing the Military Tribunals in GITMO!
Well, christ, as long as the guys still get their chicken with two kinds of fruit and their time outside in the Carribean sun who are we to complain? It’s “Club Gitmo” after all, right? These guys are fucking PAMPERED after all.
I’m sure things would have been TOTALLY different if McCain had won. NOT.
Always room here for more trolls.
who says those heads are ‘cool’?
time will tell, henry lewis.
now, i will go enjoy the night.
Agree, Lesley. Have fun.
Erk!! That was me.
You can yell “troll troll troll” all you want but the fact remains:
The One was supposed to make everything better and lead us all to happy lib-land where we just sprinkled terrorists with magic fairy dust and they’d all join hands and sing whatever the Muslim version of Kum Ba Yah is with us. Now he actually sees the kind of swine he’s got to deal with, and he’s got to grow up fast.
Think you can admit that Bush and Cheney had a point? Hmmmmm?
Hmmmm? HMMMM????? HMMMMMM??????
I expect soon that he will announce he is keeping GITMO open.
If he does that I may even consider voting for him in 2012!
Lesley, I don’t disagree w/ you. I’m just a big ol’ cynic, & your scenario of it all under the rug is very possibly what will happen. I really don’t know what can be done though.
Our buddies, our pals, our favorite government to give massive military aid to in the hemisphere, the good South American government that the Washington Post jacks off to in order to feel better about Hugo Chavez and Venezuela, you know ’em, you love ’em, Alvaro Uribe’s Colombia.
There appears to be some complications with Colombia’s conservative leadership’s embrace of national security state strategy, complete with U.S.-provided surveillance equipment:
You can actually listen to the wiretapped recordings, and no one recorded appears to be disputing that it was, in fact, themselves being recorded.
This whole scandal, of the national prosecutor’s office investigating Colobia’s domestic intelligence agency (the DAS) for spying on elected officials, judges, magistrates, and prosectors, businessmen, activists, and journalists, grew out of a very courageous story by Semana magazine, which has an English-language section.
Also, the illegal spying was all being done using surveillance equipment provided by the United States. Purely unintended consequences, as usual, though.
And it’s being investigated very, very seriously, in part because the Colombian Supreme Court doesn’t appreciate being spied on by officials in charge of the domestic intelligence agency who were all tied closely to the President. The latest claim is that the results of spying on the magistrates was reported directly to Uribe’s Karl Rove, Jose Obdulio Garcia, Presidential advisor.
So far, though, plausible deniability for Uribe has been maintained, though the security agency / spying / paramilitary scandal has touched nearly everyone around Uribe and those whom he put into office:
The “Spy Chief” in question had been Uribe’s re-election campaign director.
And he was using his Uribe-nominated position, so these charges say, as Colombia’s security agency chief, to use illegal wiretapping on U.S.-provided equipment to gather information on the enemies of right wing narco-paramilitaries in order to provide said narco-paramilitaries the better opportunity to murder their enemies.
Can you imagine how the coverage might be different — hell, it might even exist — if this were Hugo Chavez’ appointees in Venezuela?
Oh, and I didn’t mention the “false positives” scandal. That’s Colombia’s polite term for when the army took people off the street and murdered them and then dressed them up as guerrillas or paramilitaries and used their bodies to up their, um, ‘body count’ and then release the figures on how many rebels they killed that month. Sort of like a speed trap, but with more shooting and bandanas.
But just make sure everyone keeps whining about Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales, because, you know, shut up.
xposted
Bush was right not to release those pictures. And The One finally admitted it.
Bush was right not to prosecute patriots for doing their duty to keep us safe. And The One finally admitted it.
Bush was right that dangerous terrorists can’t be dealt with using traditional laws that they don’t honor and that they mock us for. And The One finally admitted it.
When will you?
Hope: Per Mirengoof of POOPERLINE:
Some of those AmeriKKKa-hating ideologues may do something to attack AmeriKKKa’s “honor.”
It’s a pisser that BHO has done this, allows the usual suspects to get frothed up and, for a change, about something real. But as usual they overlook the salient points that
1) They have been cheering on this sort of shit for 8 years
2) The left doesn’t like it and is saying so.
In true lefty style we are hanging the washing out in public with roadsigns out in case anyone misses it.
How it will play out is anybody’s guess and if there is some sort of cunning plan it better happen quickly. But overall it is symbolic of the sort of shit the Bush/Cheney sewage works have flooded your country with. There will be a lot of feces to be gone through
Hey guys, install me. It’ll make Troofie seem so much more intelligent.
By the way…
Also
Dissension? Yeah, suck it libs! But, pay no attention to Erick “Son of Erick” Erickson and Charlie Crist … or Senator Bunning and Senator McConnell … or Rush Limbaugh and, well, anyone who so much as looks sideways at him. But never mind that! All is well! All is well!
A. kiwi sez:
the sort of shit the Bush/Cheney sewage works have flooded your country with. There will be a lot of feces to be gone through
& he’s right. The ship of state (& imperialist/colonialist militarism) is a huge mo-fo, & it takes time & tugboats to change its course.
No one expected all the Gitmo detainees to be in the Heartland & collecting welfare until next summer. And all the troops in Iraq will be back & on unemployment about then too.
What’s most discouraging, perhaps, is that the Holder Justice Department is so firmly under the control of leftist ideologues, who care little if at all about either American honor or the safety of American troops, that it would push for the disclosure of photos that even Obama eventually concluded would harm America.
Someone is obviously still stuck in the days when the Department of Justice preemptively undermined the law, in case the President might later decide that he didn’t want to follow it.
Who’s got badgers? I ‘ve got badgers, baby . Dancing the night away!!!!!!!!
Mr. Mencken,
That was not satire. It admits of a certain sardonicism but I expect better from you.
Now I must go return to my dinner preparations. AND I’M NOT SAYING TONIGHT!1! PHTPTHPTTHHT SO THERE!
Fine, I can’t stand to listen to your begging anymore.
Country pate a.k.a. meat loaf maison
Roasted corn on cob
Garlic mashed potate
flan
Got some Bitburger still so that’s gonna be that.
Got some Bitburger still so that’s gonna be that.
A tribute to Ronald Reagan’s sensitivity toward those poor, misunderstood Nazi stormtroopers, no doubt!
No one expected all the Gitmo detainees to be in the Heartland & collecting welfare until next summer.
Hell, are you kidding? I’m hoping my illegal Mexican yardman will hire one, so he can cut the cost of pruning my fruit trees. I can’t wait. Now anyone can hire a munitions expert at a Day Laborer corner.
Peppered Ratfish with Salted Nose of Turks
I’m not 100% sure of this recipe. I will check with the person who taught me how to make it and get back to you. This is what I remember:
Ingredients:
1 ratfish
3 cans everlasting nose of Turk, iced
4 sticks green Cool Whip
5 pinches alchemical porcupinefish mandible, roundly French
5 ounces mint
1 jar basil
Pre-heat your oven to 276 Celsius. Sacrifice a nearby pinniped or a creature of similar size. Discard remains respectfully. Separate ratfish foot from skull. Mock skull. Use a food processor to mix the Cool Whip with the nose of turk. Stuff the resulting potion into the ratfish. Find some red vinegar and drink it. Strain – very compulsorily – the porcupinefish mandible, mint, and the basil. Knead everything together. Grill for 127 minutes. Serves 2 guilty enemies with calm stomachs.
Oh, and fuck Obama on the torture. Which is an awfully big thing to be fucked on.
I’m a little embarrassed to be an Obama Apologist, but it seems to me that He MUST HAVE KNOWN what the reaction to his blocking the photo release would be.
He’s repeating Cheney’s shuffling excuses, almost verbatim, though he can’t possibly believe or agree with them.
The President is probably postponing the photo release till after his Egypt visit, when he will reluctantly be FORCED to to so. Whether he intended that from the start, I can’t guess.
I am by no means saying we should shut up and do what “The One” tells us. Uh-uh, no WAY. We must keep after him 24/7, or as I like to put it ‘Day and Night”.
That’s Democracy.
If I’m going to have to continue to be a “Kremlinologist” to figure out what my elected representatives are up to I want some of that sweet, sweet Condi cash. I need some new shoes, dammit!
How can he stop the photos from coming out? Are court-orders that easy to overturn, even for a POTUS?
Sounds like he’s just playing politics while knowing damn well that the outcome is already predetermined – & it’s not one of his brighter moves, to put it mildly. This isn’t going to pull any votes from a GOP already reduced to its most gung-ho hardcore base, & it alienates a LOT of his supporters.
What I’m finding weird here is this: I didn’t see even a fraction as much freaking-out when President Obama went on TeeVee & gave the CIA a free pass on ANY prosecutions for their active role in this whole disgusting debacle … there was next to total silence in fact … & that was something both politically “pragmatic” & morally slimy.
I think he’s working on a strictly utilitarian menu – i.e., does doing this help or hurt my agenda – & right now he doesn’t need to put out these pictures to make the GOP look like the Khmer Rouge when they’re more than glad to do it for him, all over the media, on a daily basis.
I seem to recall him saying something about holding him to account when he doesn’t live up to his own words – if you’re an American & you really think this is a vital issue, now would be a good time to put the hammer down: he’ll need public support for health-care reform, & the risk of a massive derail due to a stupid mistake with regard to “Torturegate” is the last thing he wants right now, so there’s a good chance he’d do a 180 under sufficient pressure.
We already know the answer to that: a signifigant number of the guys SUSPECTED of terrorism or aiding & abetting it have died in custody, & it wasn’t from swine flu.
Quoted for relevance – even if you think those people the CIA worked over are all babykilling scum who only got what they deserved, the thought that you might be next should give you something highly meaningful to think about.
Want! Ackshully.
I think the reasons for being disappointed with this decision are obvious, not the least of them being the given rationale, which is awfully familiar.
That said.
What the fuck kind of good is supposed to come out of the release of these photos? I honestly don’t see much. That doesn’t mean that they will necessarily do great harm, and that doesn’t necessarily make for a convincing argument that holding onto them is the right thing to do, but the idea that the release of these photos has some kind of sweeping significance in the effort to stop, prevent and prosecute prisoner abuse and torture just doesn’t add up. If Obama or other powers within the government do not go forward with serious investigations and prosecutions of the people involved in the torture debacle, I will be disappointed and disturbed, but I really need to understand how releasing these photos RIGHT NOW will somehow help with this process.
Basically, I’m on board with the folks saying that this is not a clear-cut issue. I have reservations but given that the abuse depicted in these photos has been acknowledged and (supposedly) is or has been investigated and prosecuted, I don’t see why their release is so critical. After all, it’s not like the release of the Abu Ghraib photos got much in the way of results, WRT the prosecution of those higher in the chain of command who encouraged such behavior or a change in US military culture (and if you take this as my saying that the release of those photos was not a good thing, you’re deliberately misreading me – the abuse was not publicly known prior to the release of the those photos, this is a different situation).
As for the noise about “transparency,” it is little more than an empty platitude in this case. The administration has acknowledged that the abuses documented in the photos has taken place, and claim to have done or to be doing something about it (and they’d better). Releasing torture porn to the general public documenting abuses that have already been admitted is not “more transparent,” it is simply more visceral. There’s kind of a big fucking difference between those things.
I don’t want to wait forever, but I am willing to wait and see. Pragmatism really sucks, but getting justice takes a long time. Politics might be amoral, but they absolutely have to be dealt with. If in a year or two years there has been no further progress, it will be time to get ROYALLY pissed. In the meantime, this administration has been in office for a bit over a hundred days. In the huge, insane, jumbled bureaucracy that is our government, that is the blink of a fucking eye. This could be the harbinger of disaster to come. Or a portent of the coming friggin Hammer of Justice. Or something entirely more mundane. But we’re not going to know for a while, and there ARE more pressing domestic issues in immediate need of attention. Yes, the world sucks. Duh.
RB – that is nose of young turk, yes? That’s the only way *I* would make it.
A well-aged Turk is likely to have a flavour more satisfying to the Western palate.
I wanna know what these photos that Obama and the administration don’t own the rights to that he’s supposed to force out now will do, exactly?
How will re-hashing torture that’s already been prosecuted help us prosecute the guys who didn’t actually approve those specific methods.
Not sure what you mean by “prosecuted”.
Ummm, right. Crissa, could you ask again please. In a way that we can understand what the fuck you’re talking about.
Also, the roasted corn on the cob will be painted with mayo and a sprinkling of ancho chile powder. Then, a little grated parm reggiano and a drizzle of lime juice. Sorry for any confucianism I may have caused.
Simple quesadillas tonight – shredded leftover roast chicken breast, salsa verde, cheese melted between 2 flour tortillas on a hot griddle, served with more salsa and crema.
Corn would’ve been great with it.
Well, it sounds like what Crissa is saying is that, if you read what Obama said, these photos document abuses by individuals who were investigated and prosecuted before 2005. If we read it exactly as it’s stated, it means the photos don’t show individuals who haven’t already been investigated and in at least a few cases prosecuted. If that is the case, I’d have to agree that I don’t know how useful it is seeing Lyndie England give the “thumbs up” over 20 more different naked men pyramids, other than to drive the point home that she really loves having her picture taken. If the unreleased photos are the equivalent of the whole roll of film you shot from the same vantage point with slightly different angles, what exactly does it do to help advance prosecution of those who conceived and approved of torture?
As for what Crissa is saying re: “…help us prosecute the guys who didn’t actually approve those specific methods,” I have no idea; I don’t think there was anything that went on that wasn’t approved. Sure, Cheney may not have known that the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were going to be so big on stacking prisoners into naked-man pyramids, but he had approved techniques of humiliation already.
Also, the roasted corn on the cob will be painted with mayo and a sprinkling of ancho chile powder. Then, a little grated parm reggiano and a drizzle of lime juice.
You are torturing me with your gourmandilicious dinner descriptions.
Next you will be inflicting photos to inflame and make me hate you further!
Those prosecuted are here. Seems pretty clear to me that the foot soldiers got the hammer and that the general who turned Abu Ghraib into a torture facility got off the hook. The value in showing those pictures is to open the case again because only a few of the people responsible got jail time.
I think we’ve gotten onto a tangent here. The issue isn’t Obama trying to prevent publication of photos per se, or at least not in the more banal sense one might see him trying to quash coverage of an inadvertent lowball.
The problem, as Glenn Greenwald points out, is that Obama is following the Cheneyite ideology of presumptive secrecy. The ACLU is trying to publicize abuses because holding America’s feet to the fire when it does terrible things and everyone else is trying to smile and nod like moral cowards is one of the many things they do. Obama, in a complete reversal of prior campaign promises, is asserting that the government has the right to hide information from anyone it likes whenever it likes without having to answer to anyone for it.
We get used to the idea of classified information, but classified information has to meet specific qualifications which almost nothing actively concealed in the last nine years has. The problem isn’t Obama being a dick and classifying photos within the jurisdiction of classification measures which the public has some kind of pressing interest to see. The problem is that Obama is signalling acceptance of a censorship regime under which the government has no obligation to prove censorship is appropriate.
Presumptive secrecy is destructive and unnecessary. It’s not as sexy as the far more destructive and far more unnecessary torture which he’s been waffling about, but it’s still a violence against the constitution and it’s one of the easier slopes in White House policy to grease up if needed. And even outside of that context, it encourages an executive culture of secrecy which helps produce the same kind of blinder-bearing and conspiratorial mindset that gave us Vietnam, Watergate, the Iraq invasion under the GWOT, and the virtual siege of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina.
And if you really think that Obama’s people are above that, bear in mind that most of his current appointees are Clintonite DNC/DLC lifers, members of a political circuit in which killing your mother to gain dittohead votes is regarded as commendable.
You’d be surprised how little rope a triangulator needs to hang himself; the answer to that quandary is not to give him rope.
The value in showing those pictures is to open the case again because only a few of the people responsible got jail time.
Um, just playing devil’s advocate here, but why don’t the earlier photos serve this purpose? Why do you need the new ones to do this?
Don’t get me wrong – I want them to prosecute the fuckers who did this. But – like I said above – I don’t think releasing the photos publicly is that important. I mean, yeah, I’d prefer that they did, but I don’t think it’s essential. The investigation, the prosecution – that I think is essential, and I think they NEED to do that.
An example of political will (if you will):
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/pasadena-star-news/TJBON7EDKCA4T1CG8
These are the comments in my local rag about the El Monte cop who, while the air is thick with media, decides to get his adrenaline release on live T.V. Does seeing the video change their preconceptions? The footage certainly documents the abuse, but I’ll bet that by tomorrow, the only ones interested will be those directly involved. The rest will gladly race down the memory hole in lieu of American Idol or some other manufactured distraction. Do you think for one minute that the folks who cheer this local action are gonna give two shits about some terr’ist raghead waaaaay over there? Ticking WMD 9/11 USA!!!!!!!!!!
Doesn’t make it any less of a crime. As a result of the coverage, I trust the local judicial system will be forced to act according to the law, regardless of vigilante opinion. But, if a tree falls in Iraq and no one is around to hear. . .
Because people pretend everyone was prosecuted and it creates a new round of political pressure.
Incidentally, my pet safety blanket on the various bullshit things Obama has been doing on the national security front is that he’s severely overestimating the political objectivity of the Pentagon he inherited. While asinine stunts like handing John McCain the cost of Air Force One at an opportune time for no evident reason might wind up registering as offenses worth reconsidering their working relationship, Bush politicized the DOD to an extent unheard of since Reagan, promoted czars to play PR flack on camera on the basis of partisan fealty, and so on. I don’t think Obama’s going to get anywhere as long as he trusts any non-critical military appointee by Bush as far as he can throw them.
Petraeus and Gates represent significant improvement over the cod-Nietzschian conniptions the Rumsfeldites tied themselves up into, but only a limited, managerial sort of improvement. At the end of the day, they’re still going to push to legitimize torture and cover up civilian deaths simply because they pay ideological homage to a movement fundamentally in love with America as a mixture of empire and dirty cop.
The problem is getting rid of them before some major act of insurrection takes place and encourages Republican bleating about partisanship getting in the way of playing Jack Bauer with brown people for an entire fucking campaign season – but if I knew how to take care of that I wouldn’t just be some guy on the Internet.
I don’t think releasing the photos publicly is that important.
Are you of the same mind about the Abu Ghraib photos? Someone said earlier that their release didn’t make much difference i.e. that they didn’t prevent further abuses. But they did make a difference in the court of public opinion. Americans and people around the globe were outraged and disgusted.
Further, seeing is believing. If those AG photos had never surfaced, most people would have preferred to think such atrocities couldn’t happen or didn’t happen. The torture apologists haven’t been successful, so far, in their efforts to minimize the damage waterboarding and other approved tortures do, in part because people have seen with their own eyes the torture that occurred at Abu Ghraib.
Are you of the same mind about the Abu Ghraib photos?
No, of course not. But because they were released, the newer ones may be redundant.
Please don’t misunderstand me. I would prefer that Obama would release the new photos. I just don’t see it as a do-or-die thing – I could accept the non-public-release of the newer photos as long as law enforcement officials have access to them, and that an investigation takes place. I want the fucking investigation to take place.
Plenty of criminal prosecutions are accompanied by gag orders. The perps still end up being prosecuted. I’d rather kick the Administration’s ass about getting a prosecution going, than kick it for letting me download more pictures of people being tortured.
Just want to say, HTML Mencken, I share your disappointment.
Obama, you suck.
Try harder.
Ensuring the latter happens helps paint them into a corner with the only out as prosecution.
Forget zombies, forget the Dark Lord of Sith, the real threat to America, doh, is:
Gay Mob Rule In America
…If the mass of people decides to take the law into their own hands and enforce their own will by threats and assaults, there is no power that can stop them. The police can’t. The army can’t. If the mob gets its head up, that’s the end of the game; nothing is safe.
Mob rule is the tool gay activists have chosen in order to enforce orthodoxy to the god of Gay Rights. They’re not interested in democratic elections or fair legislation. Reasoned debate is absolutely the last thing on the planet they desire. No, you have to obey, because if you don’t, they’ll destroy your life.
Just ask Carrie Prejean….
http://www.plumbbobblog.com/?p=4451
The most despised Republicans, including ‘independent’ Lieberman, are thrilled with the decision. Now they can get back to their regularly scheduled promotions of torture on Fox, without the aggravation of being reminded of past crimes.
I have been completely wrong about everything I’ve ever said. Sorry.
Ensuring the latter happens helps paint them into a corner with the only out as prosecution.
I concede that you may have a point. I just don’t fully embrace it, OK?
I mean, whatever could do to help get the photos released, fine, but I personally think it’s way more compelling to have the evidence that the motherfuckers were deliberately torturing people to confirm their theory of AlQuaeda/Saddam. That ain’t in the photos. We already know the story behind the photos.
What evidence? The intelligence community has for most of the last two decades been screened very enthusiastically by willingness to accept Likudnik and/or neoconservative propaganda as a priori true. The market for lies in intelligence and the military has grown to such a size that I sincerely doubt the honest testimony of people who obtained actionable intelligence with rapport-based interrogation (and found their sources completely clamming up in response to the relatively mild shit we proceeded to pull in order to extract false confessions through brute force) will be allowed to stand anything like unchallenged.
If you concede the privilege of releasing what information he feels fit for public consumption to Obama, you also concede it to Gates and all of the vile CIA lifers he works with – and you can do a lot more with censorship in service of lies than in service of the truth.
Obama is expected to announce on Friday that he is reviving military trials for some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay
From a talk that Sy Hersh, who helped uncover the Abu Ghraib story, gave to the ACLU at the time.
Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm? Hmmm?
Lesley said,
Obama is expected to announce on Friday that he is reviving military trials for some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay
Yep, and the suppression of documented torture and the punting of any investigation is obviously, clearly, completely and entirely unrelated to the imminent trials of people where evidence obtained through questionable means* will remain admissable. Obviously, you know.
*Questionable, as in, no-one is allowed to know anything about it.
Poor libs. Still in denial. Still hiding things they can’t face behind little dancing badgers.
2010’s looking like it’s going to be a good year. While you’re playing with scripts to hide things you can’t deal with, we’ll be taking the country back. Because even The One now tacitly admits we were right.
The president is being an asshole. I wrote the WH and asked if he and Cheney are doing a Vaudville ventriloquism routine since everytime Obama’s lips move about torture, Cheney’s voice comes out of his mouth.
I am a proud Obama Administration supporter, but he has gone off his meds on this subject. This is not the first time he has walked back from reality and started talking like a Bushie.
Bookmark this, libs. This is how it will go down. The Palin / Miss California ticket will sweep over the blue states and then the only true patriot state, the Confederate states, will push the ticket over the top and into the White House, where we will take our 21% popularity to new heights.
Good luck with that. Put your money on the table, troll.
An excerpt from Terry Pratchett’s Making Money (slightly altered):
“I thought necromancy was banned,” said Holder.
“Oh, we don’t do necromancy here,” said Cheney. “What made you think that?”
Holder looked around at the furnishings, shrugged, and said, “Well, I suppose it first crossed my mind when I saw the way the paint was flaking off the door and you can still just see a crude skull and the letters NECR…”
“Ancient history, ancient history,” said Cheney, quickly. “We are the Department of Postmortem Communications, a force for good, you understand? Necromancy, on the other hand, is a very bad form of magic done by evil wizards.”
“And since you are not evil wizards, what you are doing can’t be called necromancy?”
“Exactly!”
“And, er, what defines an evil wizard?” said Maddow.
“Well, doing necromancy would definitely be right there on the top of the list.”
AH CAN HAZ NEW TRAED PLZTHX
El Cid, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your comments on South American affairs, and to thank you for them.
Debate on whether or not to release detainee abuse / torture photos may be moot.
Who’s got a poop joke?
I agree. Obama needs to grow a set, or borrow Hillary’s.
While you’re playing with scripts to hide things you can’t deal with, we’ll be taking the country back.
I think Nazi Germany’s long gone, dude…
Thanks tigrismus. I know enough to follow along, and I just read through many of the Spanish-language newspapers each day, and although in reality I don’t know enough to do what I think would be necessary to write a blog (or have time), it’s amazing how one can feel 1,000x more informed simply by seeing the day’s news from outside the U.S.
To me, what has been going on in Colombia about this stuff (what I wrote above) is huge, gigantic; and maybe my perspective is warped (I mean, specifically on this subject, I know it’s warped in general), but this is just as if not way more significant than the headlines here in the U.S. every time Hugo Chavez farts or looks like he might have.
USer equivocation on torture, and on punishing torturers does nothing except EMPOWER torturers in States which have none of even the tiny oversight and accountability that “we” enjoy.
Most torture in the world is done by repressive regimes on their own citizens, and by equivocating as he does, Obama gives them cover and tacit permission…
Caption this photo for Rush Limbaugh.
I got dibs on “But that’s just a guy doing yoga! Naked!”
Thanks for the link, Cid
actor212: I saw it on the Great Orange Satan.
Dear Truthy,
Nobody “tacity admits [you] were right” It’s just that you guys fucked everything up so bad it can’t be fixed in three months. For instance, it wouldn’t cost billions to close Gitmo and relocate a few hundred tortured prisoners who have been held longer than entire second world war, if it had never been opened in the first place. And you can’t now give federal trials to people when the evidence against them has been so severely compromised by their treatment. You guys didn’t think about this stuff six years ago when you did it, even though you were warned by people a lot smarter and more experienced. You just called them cowards and traitors and proceeded to royally fuck up the country and the world. Now go away and let the adults clean up your mess. That’s pretty much the way 75% of the country feels now, BTW, and why 2010 will be another debacle for you.
A poop’s favourite vegetable is a pea.
Knock. Knock.
Who’s there?
POOP!
Poop who?
You dirty liberals are always trying to downplay what we have to say.
At this very minute the committee markup and debate about whether or not a government-backed health care plan will be included in the Senate version of the health care bill. If press reports are to be believed, the “public option” is teetering on the brink as insurance company lobbyists bombard the committee members with promises to get on board with “reform” so long as the pub option is off the table (ensuring that there’s no real reform at all). I hate the phrase “crunch time” but its apt here. There will be no better moment that right now to have an impact on how this country frames its health care system.
Right on. When Obama’s Clintonite health care plan goes down to defeat, we’ll know exactly who to blame: those attention-deficit-disordered liberals who wasted their precious minutes complaining about torture in the comment thread of a blog. Why, just imagine how that time could have been more productively spent in the service of Obamacare, by… by… well, you know.
You guys didn’t think about this stuff six years ago when you did it
I disagree.
I think they not only thought about it, they did knowing full well it wouldn’t be their fucking problem when the shit hit the fan.
Hope for Small Change, you dumbass demotard fuckwits.
AlanSmithee has helped me to see the light … er, the dark … er … suck it, libs!1!
Alan Smithee (the anonymous fuck-up’s anonymous fuck-up) can’t see it so it’s Venn diagram time again.
Here’s a circle with torture lovers in it.
Here’s a circle with Obama voters in it.
Note they don’t intersect.
Here’s a circle with Bush/Cheney suckarses in it.
Oh look it intersects with ‘torture lovers’!
Bush/Cheney suckarses support torture and said nothing while it happened and may have even cheered it on. Obama supportors don’t like torture and are making the most noise against the administration.
It’s really simple, as W.J.Clinton said your time is “over” and as he added in his mind “you fucking slime ball”
What are we supposed to do with terrorists who are plotting every day to kill you, me and all of our families, sit around the campfire and listen to John Denver songs?
Leavin’ On a Jetplane
Dr BLT rappin’ cover of JD classic
http://www.drblt.net/music/jetp.mp3
Arresting them seems reasonable.
Arresting them? That’s a good start. I’ve also heard that John Denver music is great at motivating them to reveal hidden secrets about future plots to wipe out their enemies in cruel and unusual ways.
Do we only have to arrest the ones who plot every day? The ones who plot on the weekends might be pretty nasty also. I’ve heard bad things about night-time plotters too.
It’s a moral minefeild.
Speak it, Retardo!
Still the best contributer on S,N!
The ones who plot on the weekend are more dangerous and less likely to respond to the playing of John Denver music. They may respond to Nirvana, or to one of Dr BLT’s Nirvana covers, like this one:
Come as you Are
Dr BLT covering Nirvana (post-having-met-Courtney-Love) edition
http://www.drblt.net/music/ComeAsUAreDemo2.mp3
What are we supposed to do with terrorists who are plotting every day to kill you, me and all of our families, sit around the campfire and listen to John Denver songs?
As I recall, the entire nation was brought to a standstill with the question of what to do with Timothy McVeigh when he was suspected of blowing up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
And as i recall, the nation recoiled in fear when we learned that NO FORCE ON EARTH could process Mr. McVeigh for arrest, subject him to standard questioning, indict, arraign him and subject him to a trial by a jury of his peers.
This, as I recall, had never been done to a white terrorist before.
And now … we lost the formula !!!! !11221!!
naow muss torcher browns
naow muss torcher browns
naow muss torcher browns
naow muss torcher browns
naow muss torcher browns
naow muss torcher browns
Retardo/HTML is the Walter Johnson of the S,N! dugout.
Bass solo !!!
Here’s a circle with torture lovers in it.
Here’s a circle with Obama voters in it.
Note they don’t intersect.
—
Sadly, no.
Lots of Obama voters are perfectly comfortable letting this shit be swept under the rug and the torturers given promotions and raises … and the tortured … shipped to Egypt to be tortured and killed.
And Obama is kool with that too.
But …
Teh health care !!!
This shit is why, from just an day to day operations perspective, Nelson Mandela had to convene a Truth Commission. Once he assumed office as President of South Africa, he could not have the same Security Forces who kept him in prison for 25 years and hated blacks “working” for him. He needed a way to clean house and get rid of the engineers of apartheid and the malcontents who would gleefully undermine every move he made.
Hence, the Truth Commissions. Tell the truth, maybe get some amnesty. Don’t tell the truth, if we have the evidence, you go to Robbens Island, mothafucker.
Obama is a spineless collaborator.
Who are you going to vote for in 2012? I’m guessing it’s Obama and he’s guessing that too. So, right now he’s on his knees sucking Republican cock. This guy is in campaign mode all the time. His primary agenda is to gain another four years. Can you imagine the humiliation if he couldn’t match what the dullard Bush did?
My developer is trying to convince me to move to .net from PHP.
I have always disliked the idea because of the expenses.
But he’s tryiong none the less. I’ve been using Movable-type on a
variety of websites for about a year and am concerned about switching to another platform.
I have heard fantastic things about blogengine.
net. Is there a way I can transfer all my wordpress
content into it? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
You can also get baby magazines as free baby stuff which will allow you to read helpful articles about questions you may have with a new baby.
Whilst they might be thrilled to see their little
princess presented with a adorable minor dress with ruffled tights
and matching footwear and a headband with a bit of bling on
it to increase sparkle. There are so many things a baby needs (who would have imaged a tiny little person
would need so much paraphernalia.